NeXT Computers

NeXT Computer, Inc. => NEXTSTEP / OPENSTEP Software => Topic started by: urbanape on April 07, 2006, 08:58:16 pm

Title: So, really...
Post by: urbanape on April 07, 2006, 08:58:16 pm
What're the odds of getting OPENSTEP running in Parallels or Boot Camp?
Title: So, really...
Post by: ash on April 08, 2006, 04:13:44 pm
Um, try and see?  Might not recognize the network hardware...
Title: So, really...
Post by: urbanape on April 08, 2006, 08:38:10 pm
Um, send me OS4.2 install media and I will?  :)
Title: So, really...
Post by: dravier on April 09, 2006, 12:00:48 am
I have to admit that I've only skimmed the bit on Apple's website about Boot Camp, but is there any reason that you could only set up a dual boot system?  And, is there any reason it would only be limited to Windows?  If I had an Intel Mac I'd be all over this... I think it's a great idea!  But alas, my G3's are all I have for now...  If anyone is able to install NS 3.3 or OS 4.2 please let us know because that would be pretty cool.
Title: So, really...
Post by: cuby on April 09, 2006, 02:13:14 am
Openstep 4.2 installs and runs using Parallels (on my Macbook Pro 1.83). Just make sure not to use > 128 MB RAM or a HD > 2 GB (both will mess up the install). Currently, I didn't test video or network drivers (IIRC, Parallels supplies VESA video and a Realtek 8029 PCI network adapter, both of which have third-party NS/OS drivers).

Oh, and Parallels doesn't show the PS/2 mouse problem most other emulators have running Openstep.

And, yes, it's quite fast ;)

Booting Openstep using Bootcamp is probably not that easy, since the x86 Openstep version has to be booted from floppy disk. Perhaps one could build an ISO CD-ROM with an El Torito image of the install floppy - but this would still leave us with the problem of supplying the drivers floppy... One could perhaps install Openstep from Parallels on a real physical partition and then boot this native. Does anyone have a spare intel Mac for me to try this? :)

Btw., Bootcamp isn't really responsible for booting XP (or any other OS), it's rather the current firmware upgrade that supplies a more-or-less complete PC BIOS emulation. I successfully booted Gentoo Linux as well as XP. Solaris 10 and any other grub-based distribution (and, thus, everything running under Xen) currently fails for me; booting hangs when grub tries to load the stage 2 boot loader.

-- cuby
Title: So, really...
Post by: brams on April 12, 2006, 12:55:31 pm
Now that is interesting, having just got a MacBook Pro 2.0ghz I was thinking about this, I installed XP on it OK using BootCamp but haven't tried anything else yet.

I don't think BootCamp is actually the thing that patches the firmware, when I tried it at first it told me I needed to upgrade my firmware so I had to get that first of Apple, that is the firmware patch I think that allows the Mac to see a FAT32 or NTFS partition at boot time.  I think what boot camp does it supply a new pref pane for Start-up Disk and also perhaps patch XP to work with EFI, but from what you say it seems it does actually patch some kind of BIOS emmulation into the Mac.

Would you not be able to boot the OS 4.2 installer using a USB floppy disk drive?, I have one and will try it tonight and report back.
Title: So, really...
Post by: cuby on April 12, 2006, 01:21:28 pm
Quote from: "brams"
Would you not be able to boot the OS 4.2 installer using a USB floppy disk drive?, I have one and will try it tonight and report back.


Booting from USB floppy has two problems:

1. Apple would have to supply the required floppy access BIOS emulation functions (I don't think they spent work on this...) and

2. NeXTstep/Openstep loads the device driver from a second floppy. I'm not sure how exactly this floppy is accessed - i.e., via BIOS functions or via the Mach kernel floppy driver. I suspect that Mach is already handling this, so one would still need a USB floppy driver for NS/OS.

I think another option would be more interesting than running NS/OS natively - namely, a NS/OS emulation mode for OS X/x86. Actually, I'm working on this in my spare time. Out of the box, a x86 Openstep program can be executed by OS X (from the command line, double clicking won't work since the structure of the app bundles has changed) but fails to link completely due to a missing reference to the __mach_init function in libSystem.dylib. So, essentially, what is required here is a set of wrapper libraries that convert from NS/OS calling conventions to OS X system and library calls and replacement functions for the parts of NS/OS missing in OS X (e.g., Display Postscript). Not trivial, but I think it's definitely feasible.
Title: So, really...
Post by: brams on April 12, 2006, 05:29:06 pm
That is a very important observation, that has likely pissed on the parade, however I will give it a shot in the remote hopes that in some magical way, OPENSTEP sees the drivers floppy.

I'll let ya'll know.
Title: So, really...
Post by: brams on April 13, 2006, 04:20:25 pm
OK tried a Win 98SE boot floopy using a YE data USB floppy drive.  holding down the alt key at boot time brings up the boot selector but the floppy is not seen even though it seeks, if OS X or Windows are then selected the machine just hangs with the floppy seeking.

I did however conduct another experiment.  I put in my BeOS 5.0.3 CD, the machine boots that fine, however when I get the the license screen I cannot accept as the trackpad and keyboard are not working.  Not much of an idea with this one, I didn't have a USB mouse handy to try, but I'm guessing that the MBP KB & trackpad are on an internal USB bus, thus I don't think OS 4.2 is ever gonna work.

brams
Title: So, really...
Post by: brams on April 14, 2006, 01:32:16 pm
Can you give me a little walk thru on how you got OS 4.2 running on Parallels, it's hanging (beachballing) at the "Starting OPENSTEP" panel.

Before that it was hanging at the at the start, but I fixed that by disabling Intel VT-x support.

I've reset everything with "Config=Defaults" but it's still the same.

Any advice appriciated
Title: So, really...
Post by: cuby on April 14, 2006, 05:12:40 pm
Quote from: "brams"Can you give me a little walk thru on how you got OS 4.2 running on Parallels, it's hanging (beachballing) at the "Starting OPENSTEP" panel.


This also happened two or three times on my system. Try rebooting Openstep with the -v option. I had to reduce the memory available to Openstep to 128 MB to be able to boot (256 didn't work).
Title: So, really...
Post by: dravier on April 14, 2006, 08:40:41 pm
QuoteI put in my BeOS 5.0.3 CD, the machine boots that fine, however when I get the the license screen I cannot accept as the trackpad and keyboard are not working.


As a fan of BeOS I have tried to get my favorte x86 OS to run on anything possible (all be it with marginal effort due to time restraints).  I have encountered this issue both with emulators and x86 hardware.  For whatever reason some systems (especially notebooks) do not comply with Be's concept of proper input devices.  Basically, don't use BeOS as a benchmark of any kind.  

It would be an amazing waste of space, but would it be possible to drop the floppy images onto individual CD's and boot off that?  The good thing is CD blanks are really cheap and anyone with an Intel Mac has a burner.  Never tried to reformat a disk image before... just a thought.  Any comments?
Title: So, really...
Post by: brams on April 15, 2006, 12:49:30 pm
Quote from: "cuby"This also happened two or three times on my system. Try rebooting Openstep with the -v option. I had to reduce the memory available to Openstep to 128 MB to be able to boot (256 didn't work).


Memory is set to 128mb, I've done -v at boot but it still hangs, which IDE driver did you use the dual channel IDE?
Title: So, really...
Post by: brams on April 15, 2006, 01:13:56 pm
Quote from: "dravier"As a fan of BeOS I have tried to get my favorte x86 OS to run on anything possible (all be it with marginal effort due to time restraints).  I have encountered this issue both with emulators and x86 hardware.  For whatever reason some systems (especially notebooks) do not comply with Be's concept of proper input devices.  Basically, don't use BeOS as a benchmark of any kind.


To digress a little, BeOS panics when it first boots under Parallels, right at the begining it dumps the kernel and complains that it cannot find a bootable BeOS volume.
Title: So, really...
Post by: brams on April 15, 2006, 02:26:02 pm
Google, what a wonderful thing you are..........

I just found this

http://iamleeg.blogspot.com/