NeXT Computers

NeXT Computer, Inc. => New Technology => Topic started by: rjbrown99 on November 29, 2015, 11:27:47 pm

Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: rjbrown99 on November 29, 2015, 11:27:47 pm
I thought I would share a success story. My goal was to connect my NeXT Turbo Color to a standard LCD with HDMI digital input. In my case, I'm using a Dell U2415 panel that has no VGA connections.

I needed a few things to make it happen.

1) 13W3 to VGA connector. These are fairly common and as long as you find one that works for Sun equipment it should work for your NeXT.

2) VGA gender changer. Female on both ends.

3) Sync separator. This converts sync-on-green to separate sync so your monitor does not have to support SOG. (Yes, there are ways to build your own for less money - I had no ability to do it so I bought one.)
http://bit.ly/1PV4tjf

4) Standard VGA cable, from the sync separator to the converter box.

5) VGA->HDMI converter box:
http://amzn.to/1LHhFR3

Note that I tried 4 other boxes and none were able to deal with the NeXT's 1120x832 screen. The one listed above works. It has a small black border at the bottom but the other 3 sides are flush with the edge of the monitor - looks surprisingly good to me.

Not inexpensive but if you really need to go digital-only there aren't a lot of options.
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: barcher174 on November 30, 2015, 04:49:05 am
Thanks for posting this! I've been curious about a VGA to HDMI solution.
Title: Re: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: rcberwick on December 18, 2015, 10:04:03 pm
I didn't have the same success.  I got all the same parts as pointed to on this list, incl. the same Dell U2415, but - nothing. The monitor reports no signal thru a known good HDMI cable.  Any tips re the use of the SOG box or the HDMI converter?  I am either doing something wrong (neither side of the SOG box seems to do the trick), or else not using the HDMI box pushbutton settings properly, etc.  Both boxes are supplied w/ power.  Any tips? Thanks.

Quote from: "rjbrown99"I thought I would share a success story. My goal was to connect my NeXT Turbo Color to a standard LCD with HDMI digital input. In my case, I'm using a Dell U2415 panel that has no VGA connections.

I needed a few things to make it happen.

1) 13W3 to VGA connector. These are fairly common and as long as you find one that works for Sun equipment it should work for your NeXT.

2) VGA gender changer. Female on both ends.

3) Sync separator. This converts sync-on-green to separate sync so your monitor does not have to support SOG. (Yes, there are ways to build your own for less money - I had no ability to do it so I bought one.)
http://bit.ly/1PV4tjf

4) Standard VGA cable, from the sync separator to the converter box.

5) VGA->HDMI converter box:
http://amzn.to/1LHhFR3
Title: SOG
Post by: rjbrown99 on December 20, 2015, 11:57:05 pm
Initially mine wasn't working either and then I read that the SOG device only works in one direction. Make sure you have it connected in the right order. Here's how mine is set up:

13W3->VGA
VGA gender changer
SOG device
VGA cable
HDMI converter device
HDMI cable
Monitor

Here's what it looks like:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/chiceats/IMG_20151220_155850.jpg)
Title: Re: SOG
Post by: rcberwick on December 21, 2015, 04:03:08 pm
Success! This indeed works! The problem was a bad HDMI cable.  I had tried both orders for the SOG box, then switching out to a new cable worked - and the display is really quite excellent, just as rjbrown99 says. Good rez., a small black border at the bottom.  Closest thing to the old Megapixel color monitor I have yet seen, and it beats the smaller Dell LCDs.  A tip of the hat to rjbrown99, thank you for all, and the care in even sending a photo of the setup.

Quote from: "rjbrown99"Initially mine wasn't working either and then I read that the SOG device only works in one direction. Make sure you have it connected in the right order. Here's how mine is set up:

13W3->VGA
VGA gender changer
SOG device
VGA cable
HDMI converter device
HDMI cable
Monitor
Title: Excellent!
Post by: rjbrown99 on December 23, 2015, 07:34:29 am
Glad you also got it to work. Even in widescreen I thought the output was pretty solid.

Now I'm going to work on an ADB->PS2->USB solution so I can use a modern keyboard with it :)
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: cbrunschen on February 02, 2016, 10:58:47 am
I wonder whether it might be worth trying to design an all-in-one converter using something like this article from Analog Devices (http://www.analog.com/library/analogDialogue/archives/47-02/HDMI_VGA.html) - an AD9984A analog-to-digital video converter (http://www.analog.com/en/products/audio-video/analoghdmidvi-interfaces/analog-hdmidvi-display-interfaces/ad9984a.html) with sync-on-green handling, plus a ADV7513 HDMI transmitter (http://www.analog.com/en/products/audio-video/analoghdmidvi-interfaces/analog-hdmidvi-display-interfaces/adv7513.html).

The serial protocol for mouse & keyboard is known; if the remaining packets were, as well, then it might be possible to put together a "sound & video box" that offered USB mouse & keyboard support as well as analog sound and HDMI video - allowing complete replacement of peripherals for black NeXT hardware.
Title: Update re VGA -->HDMI Upscaling Converter box availabilit
Post by: rcberwick on June 18, 2016, 03:16:25 pm
If you want to go this route, it seems that it's now hard to get the converter box from any US source.
However one can easily get them from China, e.g., Tomtop.com (also available via their store on eBay):

SKU: V1619US, Name: VGA To HDMI 4K 1080P HDTV Video Audio Converter Box Adapter For PC DVD HDTV

The output is 720p to the DELL Lcd monitor.

The cost is around $39.00.
Their std package shipping, which is free, seemed quite fast.
I have been very pleased w/ this setup.
I've tested four other "upscaling converters" and none of them seemed to work, just as noted above.  
Only this one seems to work for me.

The sync-on-green box can still be ordered from:
Web Sales
255 Comfort Lane
Bozeman, MT 59718
United States
sales@si87.com
Title: congrats rjbrown99 and rcberwick
Post by: rey on March 18, 2017, 09:01:07 pm
Hi rjbrown99 and rcberwick, congrats on getting this to work!

Can either of you or anybody on this thread post pictures of this?  I'm curious as to how this looks on current standard 16:9 screens.

rjbrown99 has discovered the best NeXT screen solution available on the internet...

To see NeXT on digital instead of analog.. amazing!
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: rcberwick on March 19, 2017, 10:23:54 pm
rjbrown99 is a hero for figuring all this out. I just followed his recipe.
The screen rez is not *quite* as sharp as the old Sony megapixel, but it's close.
Here is an image from yesterday that gives some idea of what 16 x 9 looks like.  It's an iPhone shot, not very good quality, but should work, I think - pls tell me if it does not.  There are the obvious moiré banding artifacts in the photo.  Still, pretty good.  With the scsi2sd in place, one can get lots of 2 gb partitions as well -- I have a "modern" 20gb machine.
If only I had the time to re-do all the remaining gnu sw, get a modern browser going - we would have a respectable machine.  IMHO still one of the most solid machine/SW combos I've ever used, and I've seen a lot of them.

(http://i64.tinypic.com/x3uvyw.jpg)[/b]
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: rey on March 22, 2017, 04:52:53 pm
Thank you rcberwick! The borders look ok.

But I take it that clarity is improved with digital over analog?

I'll try just analog first with the common Sun adapter and if it's unbearable, I'll go with this recipe!
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: t-rexky on March 23, 2017, 01:36:41 am
Quote from: "rey"Thank you rcberwick! The borders look ok.

But I take it that clarity is improved with digital over analog?

I'll try just analog first with the common Sun adapter and if it's unbearable, I'll go with this recipe!


Please do not get confused.  You will get the best image quality if you take the NeXT video output and drive a modern "multisync" LCD with it using a SUN adapter.  This gives you the minimum number of signal conversions and therefore minimizes the losses.

The NeXT does not output a digital signal, it only outputs an analogue signal.  You therefore need to convert that analogue signal into digital at some point.  The conversion described in this thread results in an HDMI signal.  This is useful if you want to transmit the NeXT output (after conversion to HDMI) over long distances, or if the only input available to you is HDMI.

The image quality on the 19" NEC MultiSync LCD monitors, once adjusted properly to deal with the unusual NeXT frequencies, is simply SUPERB.  This has been described in other threads here, and I posted specific instructions on how to set these monitors to get the pixel-for-pixel perfect image...
Title: OpenSource ScanConverter
Post by: cbrunschen on February 17, 2018, 12:19:19 pm
It might be the this Open Source Scan Converter (http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=OSSC) might be useful. With standard firmware it doesn't quite handle NeXT's 1120x832 @ 68Hz input, since it's based on an FPGA it should be possible to write a bespoke NeXT-supporting firmware.

// Christian
Title: Re: OpenSource ScanConverter
Post by: cbrunschen on February 18, 2018, 05:43:49 pm
Quote from: "cbrunschen"It might be the this Open Source Scan Converter (http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?title=OSSC) might be useful. With standard firmware it doesn't quite handle NeXT's 1120x832 @ 68Hz input, since it's based on an FPGA it should be possible to write a bespoke NeXT-supporting firmware.


It might actually already be supported: Per this answer (https://www.videogameperfection.com/forums/topic/next-support/#post-19368) to my question on the OSSC support forum,

QuoteThe OSSC supports digitization up to 1920×1080 so that resolution should be no problem. You just need need a monitor that supports that resolution and framerate but there are monitors for sale that support even 240Hz so it shouldn't be much of a problem.


// Christian
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: chrisrot on February 19, 2018, 06:34:30 pm
I just purchased one form my Amigas. I'll give it a try on my NeXT once I soldered it.
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: cbrunschen on February 20, 2018, 11:23:13 pm
Quote from: "chrisrot"I just purchased one form my Amigas. I'll give it a try on my NeXT once I soldered it.


Please - it would be great to see if it does in fact work!
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: chrisrot on March 26, 2018, 07:06:33 pm
Hi,

I finally soldered my OSSC and it works. Soldering was not too difficult except for two little ESD-protection diodes.
However, I suggest to by the preassembled system because the cost of the pcb and all the parts is nearly the sasme as the preassembled boards.

It works with my NeXT. Both grey and Dimension outputs. The picture quality on a Dell 27" is quite good, but not as crisp as with my NEC LCD2080UX monitor. However, I haven't played with all the settings yet, maybe the quality can be further increased.

I have taken a couple of pictures. How can I post them here ?

ciao
Christoph
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: cbrunschen on March 27, 2018, 06:32:39 pm
Quote from: "chrisrot"Hi,

I finally soldered my OSSC and it works. Soldering was not too difficult except for two little ESD-protection diodes.
However, I suggest to by the preassembled system because the cost of the pcb and all the parts is nearly the sasme as the preassembled boards.

It works with my NeXT. Both grey and Dimension outputs. The picture quality on a Dell 27" is quite good, but not as crisp as with my NEC LCD2080UX monitor. However, I haven't played with all the settings yet, maybe the quality can be further increased.


Cool! That means there's now another (slightly more future-proof than having to rely on outdated monitors) path :)

Quote from: "chrisrot"I have taken a couple of pictures. How can I post them here ?


You could upload them to https://imgur.com/ and then link to them here?

Quote from: "chrisrot"ciao
Christoph
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: krazycat on March 27, 2018, 09:37:01 pm
Quote from: "chrisrot"Hi,

I have taken a couple of pictures. How can I post them here ?



Try postimage.org: it's free and for an occasional use you can use it even without creating an account.
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: chrisrot on April 01, 2018, 05:25:49 pm
Ok, here we go. My NeXT and the OSSC.... :)

First some pictures of the PCB. Top side, a few parts were not populated at this stage.
(http://www.vondenraben.de/ossc/ossc_top.jpg)
And a zoom onto the HDMI protection diodes. They are realy tiny and have no pins...
(http://www.vondenraben.de/ossc/ossc_schutzdioden.jpg)

Now some "screenshots" from my Dell 27" monitor. Let's start with the grey output of my cube. The Moire is due to scaling of the picture. It's not visibile on the screen.
(http://www.vondenraben.de/ossc/grey_ossc.jpg)
And a 100% crop into it
(http://www.vondenraben.de/ossc/grey_ossc_zoom.jpg)
The image quality is quite good, but not perfectly sharp. But this might be due to the interpolation of the monitor. The image is stable and without noise.

The output of the Dimension looks similar. The vertical stripes are again Moire, they are not visible to the eye.
(http://www.vondenraben.de/ossc/dimension_ossc.jpg)
And a 100% crop into it
(http://www.vondenraben.de/ossc/dimension_ossc_zoom.jpg)

With the dimension I made comparison shots with it directly connected to a NEC LCD2080UX.
(http://www.vondenraben.de/ossc/dimension_nec20ux.jpg)
And a 100% crop into it
(http://www.vondenraben.de/ossc/dimension_nec20ux_zoom.jpg)
The picture quality with the NEC LCD2080UX is a bit better. However, I didn't play with the dozens options the OSSC has to offer. Maybe one can enhance the picture quality with the OSSC further.
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: barcher174 on April 01, 2018, 07:50:22 pm
Wow that actually looks really good.
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: Rob Blessin Black Hole on April 04, 2018, 09:36:33 pm
Hello NeXT Community: I know all will love this project,  we are going to come in over the top of the 68040 processor and need your help , it is the Vampire man and porting it to NeXT hardware!   Boom, it will potentially increase our performance by 300 to 400 % looking at the Amiga demos ...... a true game changer for NeXT hardware imho http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4201 who is with us!
Title: Connecting a Turbo Color to HDMI/digital LCD
Post by: chrisrot on April 05, 2018, 07:41:35 pm
One additional information.
The Video-ADC gets really hot and looses sync after a couple of minutes.
When I cool it down with my fingers , the ADC syncs again. I will add a small fan.