NeXT Computers

NeXT Computer, Inc. => NEXTSTEP / OPENSTEP Software => Topic started by: Jenne on October 02, 2006, 02:10:05 pm

Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: Jenne on October 02, 2006, 02:10:05 pm
Hello.

Once again I'd like to ask members of this nice forum for some help...

I'm trying to install NEXTSTEP 3.3 on my "new" Mono NeXTstation (8 MB RAM, 25 MHz). I've exchanged the harddisk for a larger 2 GB Seagate and in the beginning the installation seems to run fine (Command + Tilde to get this one booted of the floppy "bfd" command used).

The installer seems to do everything as expected until he asks me to hit return in order to restart the station, before this he ejects the floppy but not the optical. After reboot he does not come up with the GUI for the following installtion process but again with the choice of language and harddisk to install NEXTSTEP onto.

I don't face this with my NeXTcube and with the same floppy & opticals.

Any ideas?

Thanks in advance

J
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: brams on October 02, 2006, 08:18:29 pm
Is it a Turbo?, it sounds like it's booting of the CD ROM and only Turbos can do that with the boot floppy ejected.  As it reboots, try hitting cmd-tild and then type bsd making sure the CD ROM is set to a higher ID than the hard disk.

I can't recall exactly but Turbos can boot without a floppy using a command similar to this:

bsd(1,0,0)sdmach rootdev=sd1
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: Jenne on October 03, 2006, 01:40:37 pm
Thank You very much, the hint on the SCSI ID was the solution to my problem!

In fact my (Non-Turbo) Station booted off the optical disk because the harddisk's ID wasn't set to "0" and I forgot how to configure harddisks as boot volume when using other SCSI IDs... Still have to learn!

Again: Thank You!

J
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: brams on October 03, 2006, 03:49:49 pm
Well I've learned something there, I thought only Turbos contained the code that allowed them to read 512 byte blocks, but you say your machine booted the CD.  Weird


:-)
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: blackcube on October 03, 2006, 04:13:16 pm
Quote from: "brams"Well I've learned something there, I thought only Turbos contained the code that allowed them to read 512 byte blocks, but you say your machine booted the CD.  Weird


:-)


There are some non-Turbo (25mhz) stations out there that had the turbo logic board chipset and ROM code and can boot from a CD and use ADB accessories.  Kind of a transition version I guess.  They also have 72 pin SIMM sockets.
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: Jenne on October 03, 2006, 04:15:39 pm
Quote from: "blackcube"They also have 72 pin SIMM sockets.


Hmm.... mine only has 30 Pin sockets.... really strange how many NeXTstation versions there seem to exist....

J
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: brams on October 03, 2006, 05:14:13 pm
Quote from: "blackcube"There are some non-Turbo (25mhz) stations out there that had the turbo logic board chipset and ROM code and can boot from a CD and use ADB accessories.  Kind of a transition version I guess.  They also have 72 pin SIMM sockets.


Yeah I know about the 25mhz turbos (as I call them).  They are basically an underclocked turbo slab with a 25mhz 040, but with all the rest of the turbo stuff like 72pin simms.
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: blackcube on October 03, 2006, 06:04:39 pm
Quote from: "Jenne"
Quote from: "blackcube"They also have 72 pin SIMM sockets.


Hmm.... mine only has 30 Pin sockets.... really strange how many NeXTstation versions there seem to exist....

J


What ROM revision does your slab have?
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: Jenne on October 03, 2006, 07:23:50 pm
Regarding the paper label on the ROM chip it says:

Rev 2.4 v65 M (<- the "M" could also be an "H", the print isn't too exact)

Its dated 1991.

J
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: da9000 on May 07, 2007, 09:56:11 am
Quote from: "Jenne"
In fact my (Non-Turbo) Station booted off the optical disk because the harddisk's ID wasn't set to "0" and I forgot how to configure harddisks as boot volume when using other SCSI IDs... Still have to learn!


Hey Jenne,

could you verify this again? I mean, could you give it a try? I'm really curious if that's indeed the case... Because supposedly only Turbos or those with Turbo chipset and a newer ROM can boot from CD-ROMs...

Thanks
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: Jenne on May 07, 2007, 12:50:48 pm
My comment is misunderstandable, sorry.

My Non-Turbo does defintely not boot off a CD (not NeXT Optical disc) without a boot floppy. But if there is a basic NeXTstep 3.3 on the hard disk, it is possible to boot the rest off a CD. In this case the hard disk seems to act like a boot floppy.

Sorry for writing bad things...

J
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: MacG4 on May 07, 2007, 01:36:19 pm
Quote from: "Jenne"My comment is misunderstandable, sorry.

My Non-Turbo does defintely not boot off a CD (not NeXT Optical disc) without a boot floppy. But if there is a basic NeXTstep 3.3 on the hard disk, it is possible to boot the rest off a CD. In this case the hard disk seems to act like a boot floppy.

Sorry for writing bad things...

J
very interesting, never knew that
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: da9000 on May 07, 2007, 03:02:11 pm
Quote from: "Jenne"My comment is misunderstandable, sorry.

My Non-Turbo does defintely not boot off a CD (not NeXT Optical disc) without a boot floppy. But if there is a basic NeXTstep 3.3 on the hard disk, it is possible to boot the rest off a CD. In this case the hard disk seems to act like a boot floppy.

Sorry for writing bad things...


No worries! :) I was just not believing my eyes since I had tried that so many times myself but without luck. But yes, interestingly, what you say later does make sense: booting the kernel from the SCSI hard drive and then mounting the CD-ROM as rootdev, thus acting "like a floppy boot". I've not tried it, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't work.

Thanks for clarifying it.
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: Jenne on May 07, 2007, 03:17:50 pm
I didn't actually tried this, it was more or less an accidental discovery - just forgot to take the CD out of the drive after installation and missed the boot parameters...

I'm still thinking about putting the floppy as some sort of additional "volume" to the CD ROM, just to get rid of the floppy itself. There must be a way to make a CD bootable for Non-Turbos even without the floppy inserted.

J
Title: NEXTSTEP 3.3 Installation problems
Post by: da9000 on May 07, 2007, 03:58:23 pm
Quote from: "Jenne"
I'm still thinking about putting the floppy as some sort of additional "volume" to the CD ROM, just to get rid of the floppy itself. There must be a way to make a CD bootable for Non-Turbos even without the floppy inserted.


Maybe it's possible, but I'm not sure what exactly is holding the procedure back. I think blackcube mentioned that it has something to do with reading 512byte sectors, which as far as I know CD-ROMs don't use by default. They use 2048byte sectors by default. If that's the reason, then perhaps there's no much that can be done about it, other than change the firmware. It does make partial sense to me though, since usually the ROM will have code to read a device. In this case it has code to ready "a SCSI device", because otherwise it wouldn't be able to boot off the hard drive. Now, "a SCSI device" means any of the class of SCSI devices, *but* because of the sector size differences, I can see this not working CD-ROMs, *even though* they are "a SCSI device". Any expert, feel free to chime in here with a clarification :)

BTW, I just thought: this might also be connected to the case of 1024byte sectored hard drives having problems with NeXTSTEP. I don't think I have a drive with 1024byte sectors, but if anyone does, can you get it to become a bootable drive on a non-Turbo NeXT ?