NeXT Computers

NeXT Computer, Inc. => New Technology => Topic started by: barcher174 on March 04, 2018, 08:46:41 am

Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on March 04, 2018, 08:46:41 am
Hi All,

Thought I'd post a little teaser of a project I've been working on. I call it the NoSoundADB board. Basically it's an ADB sound board without the sound.

(http://www.asterontech.com/Asterontech/board_design/nosoundadb.jpg)

Keyboard and mouse work perfect. Now I'm focusing on video.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: eagle on March 04, 2018, 02:03:15 pm
That's a very neat project.

I think it's exciting to see the new projects going on, from this one to the NeXT-USB adapters.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: Rob Blessin Black Hole on March 05, 2018, 05:38:55 am
Hello Brian: Awesome stuff , let me know when they are ready and will there be a non adb version as well? Best Regards Rob Blessin
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on March 05, 2018, 08:51:21 am
I would like to eventually do something similar for the non-ADB, but that will be more complicated. Personally I almost never use sound on my systems anyway. Giving that up simplifies the problem tremendously.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on March 06, 2018, 05:47:24 am
Did some additional work tonight. Everything seems to be working now. I'll need a board revision with some fixes.

(http://www.asterontech.com/Asterontech/board_design/adbconnected.jpg)

(http://www.asterontech.com/Asterontech/board_design/adbimage.jpg)

A couple notes:

1) this device will fail the sound test at boot. This should be disabled in the PROM. This is the default state.

2) The original next straight cables may not have the ADB pin connected. I think all the Y cables are fine. I forgot this and wasted a lot of time....

I'm pretty happy with the results overall.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: krazycat on March 06, 2018, 04:14:10 pm
Great project, very useful since the original Soundboxes are so rare. If you produce the NON-ADB version, I would buy two (and two megaloads)  8)
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: Andreas on March 06, 2018, 04:24:02 pm
this thingy does only work for the mono turbo slab since others doesn't support ADB devices?
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on March 06, 2018, 04:52:08 pm
Quote from: "Andreas"this thingy does only work for the mono turbo slab since others doesn't support ADB devices?


Correct, this requires a turbo system: mono, color, or cube. The video out will not work on a color system.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: bobo68 on March 06, 2018, 05:44:30 pm
Quote from: "barcher174"I would like to eventually do something similar for the non-ADB, but that will be more complicated. Personally I almost never use sound on my systems anyway. Giving that up simplifies the problem tremendously.


Why is that so? Isn't it just some other pins you need to route from the DB-19 connector to the keyboard output?
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on March 06, 2018, 06:24:40 pm
The non-adb signal needs to be syncronized to monitor clock. I think I recall it working at 5mhz which complicates using a microcontroller.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: bobo68 on March 06, 2018, 06:37:58 pm
Quote from: "barcher174"The non-adb signal needs to be syncronized to monitor clock. I think I recall it working at 5mhz which complicates using a microcontroller.


You mean one has to pick up the signal from the keyboard and mouse and then sync it with the monitor clock to pass it to the NeXT?
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on March 06, 2018, 10:17:34 pm
Quote from: "bobo68"
Quote from: "barcher174"The non-adb signal needs to be syncronized to monitor clock. I think I recall it working at 5mhz which complicates using a microcontroller.


You mean one has to pick up the signal from the keyboard and mouse and then sync it with the monitor clock to pass it to the NeXT?


I'm hoping that's all there is to it, yes.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: Rob Blessin Black Hole on March 06, 2018, 11:00:57 pm
Hello Brian: This is all cool stuff , would it be possible to add something similar to Drak's   USB adaptor ...  obviously the ultimate toggle switch options would be choice of USB or ADB or NON ADB peripherals  to bring sound back in some sort of NeXT PCB sound board emulator  that would plug into your box  USB ?
https://www.mouser.com/ds/2/737/adafruit-proto-shield-arduino-932880.pdf   or check this out https://www.adafruit.com/product/2133   Best regards Rob
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on March 13, 2018, 03:11:33 am
New board came today:

(http://www.asterontech.com/Asterontech/board_design/nosoundadb08a.jpg)

Keyboard and mouse are working well. The video seems a bit fuzzy, but that could be my cable and not the board. I'll need a properly shielded cable to confirm. Either way, the video is probably not very useful anyway.

So where to go from here? Well at this point I'm not going to waste the 19pin connectors on this board. I've gotten quite a bit of encouragement to move on to the non-ADB version. Nothing is wasted because I'll need everything I learned here to continue on. As I stated before, this becomes a software problem as well as a hardware one. In addition the megaload functionality will be integrated into the board as well (that part is easy and already done). No promises on timeline, but I'll try to post updates when it's meaningful.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: Andreas on March 13, 2018, 08:36:56 am
Quote from: "barcher174"Either way, the video is probably not very useful anyway.


As far as i understood, this board makes it possible to power on a Turbo slab and use it with (Apple)? ADB keyb/mouse and VGA video - or not?
So i think the video-out is essential.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on March 13, 2018, 09:04:45 am
Quote from: "Andreas"
Quote from: "barcher174"Either way, the video is probably not very useful anyway.


As far as i understood, this board makes it possible to power on a Turbo slab and use it with (Apple)? ADB keyb/mouse and VGA video - or not?
So i think the video-out is essential.


Yes, your understanding is correct. The problem is almost certainly with my cable. The Next original 19pin cable I have with no ADB connection displays fine. Rob is sending me one of the later cables with ADB to verify.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on March 16, 2018, 11:54:12 pm
I received a proper cable from Rob today:

Part number: 4535.00

I had forgotten that even with B&W, the ADB connection makes the monitor run at a weird 72.5hz which my LCD can process, but not well. Trying another monitor I get a crystal clear image.

So the good news is that everything is working as expected now.

On the non-ADB front, I received parts this week to start a prototype. Based on what I've learned in the past week I'm feeling pretty confident that we can replace the soundbox entirely.

My plan is to use a rasperry pi to prove the communication protocol. While it's weird to use a computer to boot a computer, we can look into replacing it with a more compact solution after we have proof of concept.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: hideehoo on April 01, 2018, 04:29:03 am
Any plans on making the project files or gerbers available?  Just picked up a Mono Turbo without a monitor and looking for a cheap way to get it up and going.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on December 19, 2018, 03:03:29 am
I've still been working on this in my spare time. I put a socket for the custom ASIC which is found in both the first revision megapixels and all B&W laser printers. The board can now optionally do nonADB when this chip is installed, otherwise it does just ADB. Eventually I hope to replace the ASIC with my own implementation.

(http://www.asterontech.com/Asterontech/nosoundadb/nosoundabd0.9a.jpeg)

I made a few mistakes which I've corrected on the bottom (I rushed to get it done to coincide with some time off. Never rush it...), so I plan of doing one more spin.  

The drakenware solution looks much further along than mine (hopefully almost done?) so I don't feel any pressure to finish quickly. I'm going to keep working on this just for the fun of it.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: krazycat on December 19, 2018, 07:51:14 am
Good job! The online port solution is certainly more practical than the previous revision of the board.
With the ports aligned on one side, it will be easier to find a suitable case for this board, or print a 3D replica of the original SoundBox case.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: msch on March 04, 2019, 12:45:20 pm
great project -  Congrats!
I would like to buy one if still available.
Title: that looks like a great project. :)
Post by: Waltermixxx on March 16, 2019, 03:38:20 am
Wow, what a great project.  Perfect for those who who just want to play around with a slab.  Are these boards going to be available for sale?
would love to play around with one. :)

Cheers.
Title: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on March 16, 2019, 04:45:43 am
I sent a batch to Rob at blackhole and I believe they are currently still available for sale.
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on June 29, 2019, 03:46:44 am
I figured out how to pass the sound test using the NeXT ASIC. The ASIC requires a 8.4672MHz clock signal applied to pin 5 to verify the sound circuit is complete. I made a simple clock circuit to test:

(http://www.asterontech.com/Asterontech/nosoundadb/clock_source.jpeg)

For anyone interested I'm collecting pinout information here:
http://www.asterontech.com/Asterontech/S38GC008PB02.html (http://www.asterontech.com/Asterontech/S38GC008PB02.html)

Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on August 15, 2019, 12:52:20 am
First sound output test:

https://youtu.be/XHQJnE485hk

The missing input clock was the key to getting it working. Now I need to work on cleaning up the output.
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: Rob Blessin Black Hole on August 15, 2019, 07:03:18 am
Amazing this is a game changer  for legacy NeXT hardware.
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: oneNeXT on August 15, 2019, 02:24:49 pm
Will this board fit into a Soundbox replica ?
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on August 15, 2019, 03:56:07 pm
The current board is the same length as the next soundboard, so it would fit with port modifications. I will try to keep the same board dimensions with sound.
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: Rob Blessin Black Hole on August 16, 2019, 09:56:46 pm
Hello Brian: Do you have Sound, Music and Signal Processing on a NeXT Computer Concepts and Reference manuals... if you don't I have both and would donate a set to you for the project as they have a lot of useful information of what goes on behind the scene with the software.  For both recording and playback :)
Does that sound chip have an amp or will it be possible to go out to powered speakers.
What about for recording a sound is that a whole new can of worms? I know the original sound card just had a powered microphone plugin where that later 4000A had a microphone attached.

 Best regards Rob Blessin
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on August 16, 2019, 10:07:39 pm
Hi Rob,

Yes, I already have a copy. I am going to use an off the shelf audio amplifier circuit. In this way you can plug in whatever output configuration you want. I have tested with both an original Mono amp and speaker as well as a stereo output to powered speakers. Audio in is another beast entirely. It's certainly a possibility, but honestly not high on my list of features, because I'm not sure anyone would really use it outside of a moment of curiosity. After another board revision I will probably shelf this for a while and get back to the DSP module.   
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on September 06, 2019, 05:34:44 am
All,

I'm very pleased to say I have a fully working board:

The standard board with no sound (Will pass the sound test and not lock up!)
(http://www.asterontech.com/Asterontech/nosoundadb/v2.2_nosound.jpeg)


The board with stereo output configured:
(http://www.asterontech.com/Asterontech/nosoundadb/v2.2_stereo.jpeg)


The board with mono output for a built-in speaker:
(http://www.asterontech.com/Asterontech/nosoundadb/v2.2_speaker.jpeg)

The width of the board is nearly identical to the original soundbox board, so it should easily fit in a 3d printed enclosure. To my ear it may sound better than the original, but I'm biased.
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: nextchef on September 06, 2019, 03:56:12 pm
Nice work Brian!  Combine this with some of the 3d-printed enclosures and we now are very close to a complete replacement for the soundbox.

If you have it configured with an attached mono speaker will it be disabled if you plug in external speakers?
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on September 06, 2019, 09:24:20 pm
The audio amps run independently of each other so they will both run together. You could easily add a switch for the speaker. The sound is running on the very common I2S protocol so it would be trivial to adapt to any number of off-the-self solutions. I chose the adafruit I2S audio amps because they are easy to source and <$10. I would be hard pressed to build my own solution for cheaper and it keeps this board easy to assemble (Everything is through hole).
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on September 07, 2019, 10:49:04 pm
Did some additional testing today. VGA works perfectly, as does ADB. If you boot without the NeXT ASIC installed, the sound test will still fail, but everything still works as expected (except sound). So the board on its own can still revive turbo systems if you don't care about sound.

(http://www.asterontech.com/Asterontech/nosoundadb/v2.2_adb.jpeg)
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: Rob Blessin Black Hole on September 08, 2019, 03:17:36 am
Cool Brian, I found a box of NeXT Soundbox shells as well that was marked printer trays, no faceplates still a good find.
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: krazycat on September 08, 2019, 02:27:16 pm
Quote from: Rob Blessin Black Hole on September 08, 2019, 03:17:36 amCool Brian, I found a box of NeXT Soundbox shells as well that was marked printer trays, no faceplates still a good find.

Rob, If you need them, I still have about ten fronts printed in 3D, compatible with the original shell
(https://funkyimg.com/p/2WQbT.jpg) (https://funkyimg.com/view/2WQbT)
(https://funkyimg.com/p/2WQbU.jpg) (https://funkyimg.com/view/2WQbU)
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: Rob Blessin Black Hole on September 09, 2019, 09:18:09 pm
Hello : Yes I can use those shell fronts! Best regards Rob Blessin
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on September 19, 2019, 08:12:21 am
I have a couple soundbox boards which are beyond repair that I've been using for donor parts. I created a PLCC to DIP adapter to use the ASIC from these boards as well. Both nonADB keyboard and sound are working.

(http://www.asterontech.com/Asterontech/nosoundadb/plcc_riser.jpeg)

Not a practical solution, but I was curious to see if I could.
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: nextchef on September 19, 2019, 03:13:10 pm
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: mattsoft on October 24, 2019, 04:13:22 am
Does the VGA still require sync on green or do you have a sync separator so you can use RGBHV monitors?
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: barcher174 on October 24, 2019, 05:28:02 am
The sync signals are broken out for mono systems, so no SoG requirement. 
Title: Re: New ADB Soundbox replacement
Post by: mattsoft on October 24, 2019, 05:55:46 am
Quote from: barcher174 on October 24, 2019, 05:28:02 amThe sync signals are broken out for mono systems, so no SoG requirement. 

Woo-hoo! Very nice!