Dual 800 QuickSilver CPU in Digital Audio

Started by brams, January 04, 2006, 07:47:44 am

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brams

I put a QS dual 800 CPU module in my Digital Audio G4, ran the extra wire the the 4th post etc.

CPU works fine, with the exception that the level 3 cache is not seen or detected during or after boot.  The 256k per CPU level 2 cache is seen but not the level 3.

I've tried the XLR8 cache control SW & Powerlogix as well but it does not see the cache.  Listing the device tree in openfirmware does not reveal it either (not sure if it would anyway?)

Does anybody know how to enable the cache?, I suspect that the QS boot rom (the hard rom) enables it.  Does anybody know how to flash a QS rom into a Digital Audio?, and if so is there is a rom updater flash app and .rom/.bin file anywhere? (I can't find and Apple upgrader for QS anywhere).

Some of the new G4 47 & 57 upgrades have a firmware fixer/patch CD ROM to get the machine to boot with the new type G4's, anybody know if this would work?, I guess unlikely with the 47 has that has no level 3 cache but I think the 57 does.

I've seen a picture on the net of somebody who put a QS CPU (can't remeber if single or dual) into a Sawtooth or Gig-E and it showed the OS X info panel and that had lvl 3 enabled.

It seems some DA's work with the QS level 3 cache and some not but I'm not sure if this is a DA or QS CPU revision/issue.

My other Digital Audio has got a dual Gigadesigns 1.2 clocked at 1.4 and thats runs fine, no probs at all, lvl 2 & lvl 3 cache seen with no firmware patches, cache sw or anything.

Any info appriciated.
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

Venture37


brams

Hi

Yes the machine has been running 4.2.8 ever since the update came out in late 2001, as you can see Quick Silver machines do not use this version of firmware, though as far as I can tell they do use a later one than 4.2.8

Obviously there is a difference between a Digital Audio & Quick Silver logic board, however I always thought it was down to the 4th CPU mounting post which is 12V and carries the extra current, I assume the dual 533 must have got it's current through the socket, but I think the dual 800 and above needed a seperate supply as they must take more current than the dual 533, this seems to be the case with 3rd party CPU's as they have a seperate wire and a molex.

It does seem that QS firmware is designed the switch on the cache at boot time.   Thing I don't understand though, is that some, if not all sawtooth G4 run with the level 3 cache working when they have a QS CPU fitted, why not a Digital Audio?

Is there anyway to rip the rom image from a dual 800 QS and write it to a file and then flash my Digital Audio?, or is there anyway to get the lvl 3 cache to work?

I need about another 18 months out of this G4, I was going to get a G5 but now with the Macintel things on the way I want to wait until they have gone 64bit before I take the plunge.  Thus I need as much juice as this G4 can deliver.
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

Richard Starr

Quote from: bramsI put a QS dual 800 CPU module in my Digital Audio G4, ran the extra wire the the 4th post etc.

CPU works fine, with the exception that the level 3 cache is not seen or detected during or after boot.  The 256k per CPU level 2 cache is seen but not the level 3.

I've tried the XLR8 cache control SW & Powerlogix as well but it does not see the cache.  Listing the device tree in openfirmware does not reveal it either (not sure if it would anyway?)

Hi,

I have the same problem.  Powerlogix CPU Director works to enable the L3 in os 9.  Sonnetcache worked in the earlier versions of Panther.  Nothing I can find enables the L3 in Tiger.  But this all suggests it is a software rather than a hardware problem.

I did a lot of digging and looking at logs  (particularly of CPU Director), checked the Apple Developer software tools (CHUD) Reggie program which shows all the parameters of the L3 but can't enable it, and apparently the L3 cache RAM isn't being identified.  I'm not a programmer or a techician, so I haven't got any further than that.

If you find a solution, please let me know.  An email to this list will notify my via email.

Thanks,
Rich

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brams

Hmm, Panther worked?, which version?.

Are you using a Digi Audio, which QS CPU are you using?

The thing I find extremely odd, is the fact they seem to work in Sawtooth & Gig Ethernet G4's.

I'm going to get that involved now, I'm at a bit of an impass, gonna put my Giga Designs G4 in my Mums G4, which is the one with the QS at the mo, and get a new Mac, dunno if I should get a dual G5 or maybe an iMac Core Duo.

If I find a solution, I'll keep you posted.
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

Richard Starr

Quote from: bramsHmm, Panther worked?, which version?.

Are you using a Digi Audio, which QS CPU are you using?

***
I'm using the same one as you are, the dual 800.  I know of at least one other person who has encountered this problem with that cpu in the DA.

As regards Panther,  I believe I had the L3 working and noticed it didn't work in Tiger when I loaded it onto a spare drive.  I hesitated to use Tiger for that reason for a few months.  When I did upgrade seriously,  I tried installing Panther on another drive to confirm that the L3 worked but I got distracted and never finished.   Note that Powerlogix CPU Director didn't work in Panther, only Sonnetcache, but I can not confirm that.  I reviewed some old logs in Techtool  that did confirm that it was working in the early days of Panther.

Powerlogix has to revise CPUD every time Apple comes up with a new version of Tiger.  I keep hoping something will finally click.  They haven't done the upgrade yet for 10.4.5.

I am convinced that a few lines of firmware code would solve this problem. but like you, I haven't been able to find a way to look at the firmware code for Quicksilver.  You can read it in the latest upgrade for D.A. but there are no upgrades for the Quicksilver firmware.

If you know anyone with a QS, you can probably find a way to print it out but the difference between QS and DA may be even deeper, in the early startup mediated by the rom.

It has taken too much of my time to try to solve it but it makes me crazy.  The machine is pretty nice, even without the L3.

Rich

phollens

I just put a Dual 1GHz CPU in My Digital Audio Machine and it works great with the L3 cache and everything.  It had a 466 in it to begin with.  I did NOT upgrade the firmware of the machine though.  Maybe the new firmware messes it up, or it could be the newer Tiger re-enables the cache.  I am running 10.4.5 with 4.1.8f5 firmware.  I would try the OS version first, and if that doesn't work then try to find this version of the firmware.  Maybe you will get lucky.  Cheers.






Quote from: "brams"Hi

Yes the machine has been running 4.2.8 ever since the update came out in late 2001, as you can see Quick Silver machines do not use this version of firmware, though as far as I can tell they do use a later one than 4.2.8

Obviously there is a difference between a Digital Audio & Quick Silver logic board, however I always thought it was down to the 4th CPU mounting post which is 12V and carries the extra current, I assume the dual 533 must have got it's current through the socket, but I think the dual 800 and above needed a seperate supply as they must take more current than the dual 533, this seems to be the case with 3rd party CPU's as they have a seperate wire and a molex.

It does seem that QS firmware is designed the switch on the cache at boot time.   Thing I don't understand though, is that some, if not all sawtooth G4 run with the level 3 cache working when they have a QS CPU fitted, why not a Digital Audio?

Is there anyway to rip the rom image from a dual 800 QS and write it to a file and then flash my Digital Audio?, or is there anyway to get the lvl 3 cache to work?

I need about another 18 months out of this G4, I was going to get a G5 but now with the Macintel things on the way I want to wait until they have gone 64bit before I take the plunge.  Thus I need as much juice as this G4 can deliver.
Patrick

brams

Are you using an Apple dual CPU module out of a QuickSilver G4 in your Digital Audio? or 3rd party, these ones work fine, I have a dual 1.2 clocked at 1.4 Giga Designs in my other Digital Audio and it works like a charm, lvl 3 cache, the works.  Seems the problem is with OEM Apple QS modules in DA's but maybe not Gig-E's or Sawtooths.

Is it possible to downgrade the firmware?.  I know there was also a 4.2.5 which is supposed to be quite rare, apparently is you have one of these, you can't upgrade to 4.2.8 but the the 3rd party CPU makers say you don't need to in that case?

Quote from: "Richard Starr"

It has taken too much of my time to try to solve it but it makes me crazy. The machine is pretty nice, even without the L3.



Agreed but it's the fact it's there not working that does my head in, I am very fastidious and it bugs me.

Cheers
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

phollens

Sorry.  It is an Original Apple CPU out of a Quicksilver with 12V run to the 4th post hole.  I need to remember to be more specific.  Thanks for pointing that out.  I don't know if you can downgrade the firmware though.  I certainly am not going to upgrade mine at this point as it will probably stop using the L3 cache if I do, and  the machine is working perfectly.  I am actually writing this post on it. Hopefully this helps somebody. Cheers

.




Quote from: "brams"Are you using an Apple dual CPU module out of a QuickSilver G4 in your Digital Audio? or 3rd party, these ones work fine, I have a dual 1.2 clocked at 1.4 Giga Designs in my other Digital Audio and it works like a charm, lvl 3 cache, the works.  Seems the problem is with OEM Apple QS modules in DA's but maybe not Gig-E's or Sawtooths.

Is it possible to downgrade the firmware?.  I know there was also a 4.2.5 which is supposed to be quite rare, apparently is you have one of these, you can't upgrade to 4.2.8 but the the 3rd party CPU makers say you don't need to in that case?

Quote from: "Richard Starr"

It has taken too much of my time to try to solve it but it makes me crazy. The machine is pretty nice, even without the L3.



Agreed but it's the fact it's there not working that does my head in, I am very fastidious and it bugs me.

Cheers
Patrick

brams

Quote from: "phollens"Sorry.  It is an Original Apple CPU out of a Quicksilver with 12V run to the 4th post hole.  I need to remember to be more specific.


No problem, thank you for helping.  I find this interesting.  The dual 1.0 ghz CPU is to the best of my knolwedge significantly different to the 800, AFAIK it uses copper CPU's rather than aluminium and I think it also uses DDR lvl 3 cache chips rather than SDRAM.

Anybody else out there that can confirm this?, but it seems like it could be firmware.  I will investigate the firmware and see if I can roll it back.

Here what Apple system profiler says about it.

Hardware Overview:

 Machine Name:   Power Mac G4
 Machine Model:   PowerMac3,4
 CPU Type:   PowerPC G4  (2.1)
 Number Of CPUs:   2
 CPU Speed:   800 MHz
 L2 Cache (per CPU):   256 KB
 Memory:   768 MB
 Bus Speed:   133 MHz
 Boot ROM Version:   4.2.8f1
 Serial Number:   CK116H4FK6X

System Software Overview:

 System Version:   Mac OS X 10.4.5 (8H14)
 Kernel Version:   Darwin 8.5.0
 Boot Volume:   Clockwork
 Computer Name:   Clockwork
 User Name:   Lesley Bramley (lesley)

Thanks
Michael Bramley.
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

brams

OK, I've been looking and I can't find G4 AGP Graphics 4.1.8f5 firmware update, does anybody have it or a link?

Thanks
brams
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

brams

OK this much I know.

Digital Audio used 667 & 733, MPC 7450 (2.0).  466, 533 & X2 533, MPC 7410 (1.3).  667 & 733 used 1mb lvl 3  cache at 33% of cpu clock.

QuickSilver (1st version) 733, 867 & X2 800, MPC 7450 (2.1).  733 no lvl 3 cache, 867 & X2 800 2mb lvl 3 cache at 25% of cpu clock.

QuickSilver (2nd version) 800 MPC 7450 (2.1).  933 & X2 1.0ghz MPC 7455 (2.1).  933 & 1.0ghz 2mb lvl 3 cache @ 50 to 100% of cpu clock (not sure but DDR).  800 seems to be de-clocked 867 from 1st gen.

Thus, Digital Audios never had a X2 MPC 7450 configuration, only X2 MPC 7410, also it seems they are a later revision on the QS (2.1 vs 2.0).

Could it be the fact that it is an MPC 7450 CPU and not a 7455 that allows the cache on yours and not on mine?
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

phollens

I don't know.  I can't seem to get a hold of CPU Director to find out what Model of CPU that I have.  My numbers do match yours in the System Profiler.  Here is the output:



Hardware Overview:

 Machine Name:   Power Mac G4
 Machine Model:   PowerMac3,4
 CPU Type:   PowerPC G4  (2.1)
 Number Of CPUs:   2
 CPU Speed:   1 GHz
 L2 Cache (per CPU):   256 KB
 L3 Cache (per CPU):   2 MB
 Memory:   1 GB
 Bus Speed:   133 MHz
 Boot ROM Version:   4.1.8f5
 Serial Number:   XB1160XGKXQ
 Sales Order Number:   M7627LL/A



System Software Overview:

 System Version:   Mac OS X 10.4.5 (8H14)
 Kernel Version:   Darwin 8.5.0
 Boot Volume:   System
 Computer Name:   DA Powermac
 User Name:   User Company (user)



I am trying to find a program that will identify if I have 7450 or 7455 CPUs.  I will let you know what I find out.





Quote from: "brams"OK this much I know.

Digital Audio used 667 & 733, MPC 7450 (2.0).  466, 533 & X2 533, MPC 7410 (1.3).  667 & 733 used 1mb lvl 3  cache at 33% of cpu clock.

QuickSilver (1st version) 733, 867 & X2 800, MPC 7450 (2.1).  733 no lvl 3 cache, 867 & X2 800 2mb lvl 3 cache at 25% of cpu clock.

QuickSilver (2nd version) 800 MPC 7450 (2.1).  933 & X2 1.0ghz MPC 7455 (2.1).  933 & 1.0ghz 2mb lvl 3 cache @ 50 to 100% of cpu clock (not sure but DDR).  800 seems to be de-clocked 867 from 1st gen.

Thus, Digital Audios never had a X2 MPC 7450 configuration, only X2 MPC 7410, also it seems they are a later revision on the QS (2.1 vs 2.0).

Could it be the fact that it is an MPC 7450 CPU and not a 7455 that allows the cache on yours and not on mine?
Patrick

brams

Hmm, the best way out of this might be to eBay the CPU's to a single QS user and I get Sonnet or PowerLogix dualie......

Grrr I wish I liked the case design of the QS & MDD but I don't I much prefer the look of the old G4.
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

phollens

Quote from: "brams"OK this much I know.
Could it be the fact that it is an MPC 7450 CPU and not a 7455 that allows the cache on yours and not on mine?



I am pretty sure that they are 7455 chips.  CPU Accelerator reports them as 7460/7455 CPUs.  I haven't dug the machine out of the rack to physically check, but I do recall seeing 7455 on the chips themselves.  It is too bad you are across the pond or I would have you send the module to me to check it out.  Your best bet is probably to sell it and get an upgrade that you know is going to work.  If it makes any difference, my heatsink is the one with the corner missing to avoid the little coils.  I have seen them as a full rectangle as well.  Maybe that in itself would specify different revisions???  Cheers.
Patrick