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Next Emulator

 
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krfkeith



Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:29 pm    Post subject: Next Emulator Reply with quote

I was just wondering if there are any NeXT cube or station emulators out there. If there aren't I don't see why not. I don't have but more importantly can't find a cube but would like to get a feel for NeXTstep 1 and 2.
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Andreas



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 355
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: Next Emulator Reply with quote

krfkeith wrote:
I was just wondering if there are any NeXT cube or station emulators out there.


AFAIK there are none avail.

Quote:

If there aren't I don't see why not.


The reason is simple: because none has written one. With todays 680x0 emulation cores as in UAE or Basilisk it should be no technical problem at all. Otherwise, why not installing the Intel version if you don't like to drive the real superior black hardware <bg>.

Quote:

I don't have but more importantly can't find a cube but would like to get a feel for NeXTstep 1 and 2.


I assume also that these OS there complicated to transfer to an emulation machine, as long as you can connect a prebuild hd on the emulator. Even on real black hardware the most cubes have a broken OD and can't recover these old versions.
I'm serching for years for the NeXTstep 2.2 CD set, but none seems to have it.
I have also a few disk sets of 2.1 but most floppies seems to be broken.
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helf



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 1097
Location: Alabama, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought one reason there isn't an emulator might be because of those custom VLSI or whatever chips...
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krfkeith



Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No No No

You see I *really* want some black hardware but I simply can't find any. I've scowered eBay. If anybody has some I might be interested in it for a reasonable price. I thought an emulator would be the NeXT (sorry for the bad pun!) best thing!
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Andreas



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 355
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

helf wrote:
I thought one reason there isn't an emulator might be because of those custom VLSI or whatever chips...


...says the AMIGA-guy and explained that there will never be an Emulator possible Smile.
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helf



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 1097
Location: Alabama, USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah, thats true enough Razz I wish someone with the know-how would tackle it.
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 716
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:16 am    Post subject: For starters Reply with quote

You'd need a dump of a ROM. I haven't had any luck trying to get one from a running cube. But with a copy of the firmware, I'm sure you could bang something together. NetBSD boot's so there is some hope.
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cuby



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 167
Location: Coburg, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: For starters Reply with quote

neozeed wrote:
You'd need a dump of a ROM. I haven't had any luck trying to get one from a running cube. But with a copy of the firmware, I'm sure you could bang something together. NetBSD boot's so there is some hope.


A dump of the ROM can be found somewhere on the net (I'd have to search for the URL, though) - IIRC, a V.74 ROM from a Color Turbo.

A concept for a NeXT emulator actually is in the back of my mind for quite some time... one good base would be Aranym, an Open Source Atari Falcon emulator (68040 with MMU and FPU+rudimentary DSP emulation support). However, writing emulation code for all of the (partially undocumented) NeXT hardware would take quite some time. Since the selection of OS's to run on top of a NeXT emulator is quite small (NeXTstep/Openstep, NetBSD, Plan 9... any others?), one could modify the kernel of the OS to be emulated and replace the I/O routines (SCSI, Ethernet etc.) of the device drivers with functions that directly interact with the host system's hardware. IIRC, this is what SheepShaver does when running MacOS Classic. It will work quite well with NeXTstep/Openstep applications since most of these are programmed to work with the system-provided libraries instead of bypassing them (which is what many Amiga and Atari ST programs did).

If one used an emulator like to one described above, the ROM functionality could also be easily emulated. I started adding a Mach-O loader to Aranym some weeks ago but this still crashes when starting the kernel, I think some of the memory mappings I used are incorrect.

Another approach I started was to work on an OS X user mode NeXT/Openstep emulator which would rewrite the shared library function calls of NeXTstep apps to equivalent Cocoa functions or reimplement missing functionality. This code actually works in a rudimentary form and is able to execute some (68k) command line binaries.

However, at the moment, these are only spare-time activities of mine. I would really love to complete both emulator projects... but I'm afraid there's not much commercial interest remaining that would permit me to work full-time on the projects...
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idylukewild



Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Posts: 121
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fantastic work cuby! It sounds like it's not only possible, but you are getting it done!
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domiel



Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Posts: 37
Location: Sydney, AU

PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: For starters Reply with quote

cuby wrote:
neozeed wrote:
You'd need a dump of a ROM. I haven't had any luck trying to get one from a running cube. But with a copy of the firmware, I'm sure you could bang something together. NetBSD boot's so there is some hope.


A dump of the ROM can be found somewhere on the net (I'd have to search for the URL, though) - IIRC, a V.74 ROM from a Color Turbo.

A concept for a NeXT emulator actually is in the back of my mind for quite some time... one good base would be Aranym, an Open Source Atari Falcon emulator (68040 with MMU and FPU+rudimentary DSP emulation support). However, writing emulation code for all of the (partially undocumented) NeXT hardware would take quite some time. Since the selection of OS's to run on top of a NeXT emulator is quite small (NeXTstep/Openstep, NetBSD, Plan 9... any others?), one could modify the kernel of the OS to be emulated and replace the I/O routines (SCSI, Ethernet etc.) of the device drivers with functions that directly interact with the host system's hardware. IIRC, this is what SheepShaver does when running MacOS Classic. It will work quite well with NeXTstep/Openstep applications since most of these are programmed to work with the system-provided libraries instead of bypassing them (which is what many Amiga and Atari ST programs did).

If one used an emulator like to one described above, the ROM functionality could also be easily emulated. I started adding a Mach-O loader to Aranym some weeks ago but this still crashes when starting the kernel, I think some of the memory mappings I used are incorrect.

Another approach I started was to work on an OS X user mode NeXT/Openstep emulator which would rewrite the shared library function calls of NeXTstep apps to equivalent Cocoa functions or reimplement missing functionality. This code actually works in a rudimentary form and is able to execute some (68k) command line binaries.

However, at the moment, these are only spare-time activities of mine. I would really love to complete both emulator projects... but I'm afraid there's not much commercial interest remaining that would permit me to work full-time on the projects...


Cuby,

Have you made any further progess with this or has the project stagnated?

Would you consider posting what you have done so that others might find some time to work on it?
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eagle



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 442

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:18 pm    Post subject: Re: For starters Reply with quote

domiel wrote:
Cuby,

Have you made any further progess with this or has the project stagnated?

Would you consider posting what you have done so that others might find some time to work on it?

I would love to see an update as well. Regarding my retro computing hobby, the thing I want above all else is a way to run m68k NeXT apps. Whether that happens on OS X, in NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP x86, or in a full NeXT emulator, I don't really care, but I really want to be able to do it.

See, I was running out of hard disk space some years ago, on my NeXT, so I pulled out all the x86 code, so most of my apps don't run on my VMware emulated NeXTSTEP 3.3 and OPENSTEP 4.2. Sad That, and Improv was never released for Intel...
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papa_november



Joined: 18 May 2009
Posts: 13
Location: California

PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a NeXT emulator happens, it would be most likely to happen in MESS. Hell, there might already be a skeleton (i.e. hilariously unfinished) driver for it.
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itomato



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 302
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://wiki.qemu.org/Google_Summer_of_Code_2010#NeXT_machines_system_emulation

I remember stumbling across this somewhere/somehow - dunno if it was linked from here or not.
A NeXT emulator is/was among the QEMU GSOC ideas:

Quote:
NeXT machines system emulation

NeXT machines are designed in a similar idea to 68k Macintosh ones. Documentation is almost not available. Original firmware MUST be used. MESS emulator project started a NeXT emulation but it is still work-in-progress so not much ideas can be taken from it.

* Skill level: high
* Languages: C, 68k assembler
* Mentor: Natalia Portillo
* Suggested by: Natalia Portillo


Mentor: http://wiki.qemu.org/User:NataliaPortillo
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eagle



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 442

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, that reminds me, another thing I'd love to have is an emulator capable of running the PPC version of Rhapsody (AKA Mac OS X 1.x).
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itomato



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 302
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

papa_november wrote:
If a NeXT emulator happens, it would be most likely to happen in MESS. Hell, there might already be a skeleton (i.e. hilariously unfinished) driver for it.


Code:

/***************************************************************************

        NeXT

        05/11/2009 Skeleton driver.

****************************************************************************/

#include "driver.h"
#include "cpu/m68000/m68000.h"

static ADDRESS_MAP_START(next_mem, ADDRESS_SPACE_PROGRAM, 32)
        AM_RANGE(0x00000000, 0x0001ffff) AM_ROM AM_REGION("user1", 0)
        AM_RANGE(0x02000000, 0x0200ffff) AM_RAM
        AM_RANGE(0x0b000000, 0x0b03ffff) AM_RAM
ADDRESS_MAP_END

/* Input ports */
static INPUT_PORTS_START( next )
INPUT_PORTS_END

--- 8< --- 8< --- 8< ---  SNIPPED FOR BREVITY --- 8< --- 8< --- 8< ---

/* ROM definition */
ROM_START( next )
    ROM_REGION32_BE( 0x20000, "user1", ROMREGION_ERASEFF )
        ROM_SYSTEM_BIOS( 0, "v12", "v1.2" )
        ROMX_LOAD( "rev_1.2.bin",     0x0000, 0x10000, CRC(7070bd78) SHA1(e34418423da61545157e36b084e2068ad41c9e24), ROM_BIOS(1))
        ROM_SYSTEM_BIOS( 1, "v10", "v1.0 v41" )
        ROMX_LOAD( "rev_1.0_v41.bin", 0x0000, 0x10000, CRC(54df32b9) SHA1(06e3ecf09ab67a571186efd870e6b44028612371), ROM_BIOS(2))
ROM_END

ROM_START( nextnt )
        ROM_REGION32_BE( 0x20000, "user1", ROMREGION_ERASEFF )
        ROM_SYSTEM_BIOS( 0, "v25", "v2.5 v66" )
        ROMX_LOAD( "rev_2.5_v66.bin", 0x0000, 0x20000, CRC(f47e0bfe) SHA1(b3534796abae238a0111299fc406a9349f7fee24), ROM_BIOS(1))
        ROM_SYSTEM_BIOS( 1, "v24", "v2.4 v65" )
        ROMX_LOAD( "rev_2.4_v65.bin", 0x0000, 0x20000, CRC(74e9e541) SHA1(67d195351288e90818336c3a84d55e6a070960d2), ROM_BIOS(2))
        ROM_SYSTEM_BIOS( 2, "v21", "v2.1 v59" )
        ROMX_LOAD( "rev_2.1_v59.bin", 0x0000, 0x20000, CRC(f20ef956) SHA1(09586c6de1ca73995f8c9b99870ee3cc9990933a), ROM_BIOS(3))
ROM_END

ROM_START( nexttrb )
        ROM_REGION32_BE( 0x20000, "user1", ROMREGION_ERASEFF )
        ROM_SYSTEM_BIOS( 0, "v33", "v3.3 v74" )
        ROMX_LOAD( "rev_3.3_v74.bin", 0x0000, 0x20000, CRC(fbc3a2cd) SHA1(a9bef655f26f97562de366e4a33bb462e764c929), ROM_BIOS(1))
        ROM_SYSTEM_BIOS( 1, "v32", "v3.2 v72" )
        ROMX_LOAD( "rev_3.2_v72.bin", 0x0000, 0x20000, CRC(e750184f) SHA1(ccebf03ed090a79c36f761265ead6cd66fb04329), ROM_BIOS(2))
        ROM_SYSTEM_BIOS( 2, "v30", "v3.0 v70" )
        ROMX_LOAD( "rev_3.0_v70.bin", 0x0000, 0x20000, CRC(37250453) SHA1(a7e42bd6a25c61903c8ca113d0b9a624325ee6cf), ROM_BIOS(3))
ROM_END

/* Driver */

/*    YEAR  NAME    PARENT  COMPAT   MACHINE    INPUT    INIT    COMPANY                 FULLNAME                FLAGS */
COMP( 1987, next,       0,              0,      next,           next,    0,      "Next Software, Inc",   "NeXT",                                GAME_NOT_WORKING)
COMP( 1990, nextnt, next,       0,      next040,        next,    0,      "Next Software, Inc",   "NeXT (Non Turbo)",    GAME_NOT_WORKING)
COMP( 1992, nexttrb,next,       0,      next040,        next,    0,      "Next Software, Inc",   "NeXT (Turbo)",                GAME_NOT_WORKING)


How right you are!

For better or worse, I'm trying a build..
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