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What Needs to be done for a NeXT Emulator
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andreas_g



Joined: 30 Jan 2009
Posts: 413
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Thu May 04, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still looking for some real world results for my test programs. Maybe someone has time to run them on a 68030 Cube: https://www.dropbox.com/s/42b8zrwj9zxksxk/FPU_Test.compressed?dl=0
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK... I got the latest 1.6 snap to build on Windows after fighting cmake....

Anyways GDB + SDL2 doesn't work. sigh.

I did find something weird, that the SLiRP Ethernet has some issues with being plugged in/out as part of booting.

So as a test I just short circuited all the teardown to do nothing...

Code:
    if(slirp_inited) {
        Log_Printf(LOG_WARN, "Stopping SLIRP(aborted)");
        return;


NeXTSTEP 0.8 is apparently very much a 4.3BSD Tahoe port, so the network config all depends on scripts being able to resolve itself I suppose in rc.boot you an just do

Code:
ifconfig en0 10.0.2.15 netmask 255.255.255.0
route add default 10.0.2.2 1
ping 10.0.2.2 100 2


naturally you'll need to fix /etc/ttys to allow root access if you want in as root (who doesn't?!) I should also add that pinging the gateway makes it actually work, I guess the arp get's stuck or something, and the NeXT is such a good customer, that unless someone talks to it, it'll just sit there silent.

Code:
Don't login as root, use su
NeXT_0_8# hostinfo
Mach kernel version 1.0.
Kernel configured for a single processor only.
1 processor is physically available.
Primary memory available: 63.99 megabytes.
slot 0: MC68030 (NeXT) UP
NeXT_0_8#



I love the sound + DSP! wow that's freaking awesome!

I don't know if it's also happening on Linux/OS X but doing a make VERBOSE=1 shows that CFLAGS is getting set to -O3, and -O0 ..

That said, wow 1988....

Code:
NeXT_0_8> cc -v
NeXT version 5e0.8 (GNU version 1.26)


GCC 0.9 was 1987, amazing how quickly it had progressed, and how early NeXT was 'objectifying' it.
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t-rexky



Joined: 09 Jan 2011
Posts: 271
Location: Snowy Canada

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: Networking status - having issues Reply with quote

I tried setting up NS 2.0 on Previous 1.6 over the weekend. With the 2.0 disk dump I lifted off winworld I keep getting kernel panics almost continuously. So I tried the 2.1 disk dump and it seems to be behaving fine. Except - I cannot get the network to function reliably. I am running on 2011 iMac with the latest OS X. Here are my observations:

  • The network seems to come up, but not reliably. Many times it appears to be "unreachable" after boot-up.
  • When I manage to get the network running, ftp to my NAS will successfully log-in, but I cannot get any data transfers to work: neither ls, not get or put work. I get response timeouts at ftp level.
  • I cannot get NFS to work either - trying to mount my NAS results in "access denied", even though I can mount if from any other machine on my LAN.
  • Same network behaviour with NS 3.3


I re-read old posts in this thread but could not find anything definite. Any thoughts? Is this OS X 10.12 related? Many thanks.
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: Networking status - having issues Reply with quote

t-rexky wrote:
I tried setting up NS 2.0 on Previous 1.6 over the weekend. With the 2.0 disk dump I lifted off winworld I keep getting kernel panics almost continuously. So I tried the 2.1 disk dump and it seems to be behaving fine. Except - I cannot get the network to function reliably. I am running on 2011 iMac with the latest OS X. Here are my observations:

  • The network seems to come up, but not reliably. Many times it appears to be "unreachable" after boot-up.
  • When I manage to get the network running, ftp to my NAS will successfully log-in, but I cannot get any data transfers to work: neither ls, not get or put work. I get response timeouts at ftp level.
  • I cannot get NFS to work either - trying to mount my NAS results in "access denied", even though I can mount if from any other machine on my LAN.
  • Same network behaviour with NS 3.3


I re-read old posts in this thread but could not find anything definite. Any thoughts? Is this OS X 10.12 related? Many thanks.


All I know is from testing on Windows, is that SLiRP really doesn't like the init/deinit/init thing. I have a Mac laptop at home, but since Apple decided that PPTP is obsolete, I can't connect to my Synology... I need to get another for home anyway.

If you can build from source, I'd start there, find the disconnect, and short circuit it.
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t-rexky



Joined: 09 Jan 2011
Posts: 271
Location: Snowy Canada

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the suggestion. I did not have much time to troubleshoot so I thought I would try the "brute force" approach first and ask here.

Are you on latest Synology software? I don't have any issues accessing my Synology NAS from any of my vintage machines all the way up to the current OS X.
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

t-rexky wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion. I did not have much time to troubleshoot so I thought I would try the "brute force" approach first and ask here.

Are you on latest Synology software? I don't have any issues accessing my Synology NAS from any of my vintage machines all the way up to the current OS X.


I doubt I'm that current, I use it as storage for my ESXi as well, and I hate rebooting as I usually shut everything down, which takes a while....
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eagle



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 389

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neozeed wrote:
t-rexky wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion. I did not have much time to troubleshoot so I thought I would try the "brute force" approach first and ask here.

Are you on latest Synology software? I don't have any issues accessing my Synology NAS from any of my vintage machines all the way up to the current OS X.


I doubt I'm that current, I use it as storage for my ESXi as well, and I hate rebooting as I usually shut everything down, which takes a while....


Yeah, I had to update mine yesterday and whenever I do that, I have to shut down ESXi and I have to disconnect my iSCSI drives. It's loads of fun if I forget to do that...

I wish I had a suggestion for t-rexky because I'm running NS 3.3 inside Previous 1.6a, and connecting to NFS without any problem.

t-rexky, did you try the steps I outlined here? http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3598
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My NeXTs:
NeXT Computer prototype (68030-25 x2, 68040-25)
Two NeXTstations (68040-25)
All mono
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eagle wrote:
neozeed wrote:
t-rexky wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion. I did not have much time to troubleshoot so I thought I would try the "brute force" approach first and ask here.

Are you on latest Synology software? I don't have any issues accessing my Synology NAS from any of my vintage machines all the way up to the current OS X.


I doubt I'm that current, I use it as storage for my ESXi as well, and I hate rebooting as I usually shut everything down, which takes a while....


Yeah, I had to update mine yesterday and whenever I do that, I have to shut down ESXi and I have to disconnect my iSCSI drives. It's loads of fun if I forget to do that...

I wish I had a suggestion for t-rexky because I'm running NS 3.3 inside Previous 1.6a, and connecting to NFS without any problem.

t-rexky, did you try the steps I outlined here? http://www.nextcomputers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=3598


I should add, that on 0.8, I had to create host entries too, while 3.3 and rhapsody didn't seem to care... Shocked
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Networking status - having issues Reply with quote

t-rexky wrote:
I tried setting up NS 2.0 on Previous 1.6 over the weekend. With the 2.0 disk dump I lifted off winworld I keep getting kernel panics almost continuously.


I grabbed the "Nextstep 2.0 HD Image With Previous " image, and overlaid my exe ...

Previous-1.6_build_767.7z

(password in the 404)

and im running on Wine, well, crossover 16.2 and it seems OK.. I booted an 0.8 image I transered onto MO disc, and it was fine, and I can telnet into it, and 2.0 booted up, and I did a basic network config by editing hostconfig and making sure it pings 10.0.2.2 a few times so the gateway will work...

Code:
$ telnet localhost 42323
Trying ::1...
telnet: connect to address ::1: Connection refused
Trying 127.0.0.1...
Connected to localhost.
Escape character is '^]'.


NeXT Mach (ns2) (ttyp2)

login: root
root login refused on this terminal.
login: root
Type xterm-256color unknown
TERM = (unknown) vt220
ns2# hostinfo
Mach kernel version:
         NeXT Mach 2.0: Wed Nov 21 12:46:53 PST 1990; /ph1_sources/projects/mk-108.1/RELEASE

Kernel configured for a single processor only.
1 processor is physically available.
Processor type: MC680x0 (68030)
Processor active: 0
Primary memory available: 64.00 megabytes.
Default processor set: 40 tasks, 67 threads, 1 processors
Load average: 0.09, Mach factor: 0.95
ns2#


oh yeah edit /etc/ttys so it'll let me login as root.

68030 25Mhz, no NBIC, Windows exe running through WINE on OS X 10.12.3
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t-rexky



Joined: 09 Jan 2011
Posts: 271
Location: Snowy Canada

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys! I will try on one of my semi-vintage PCs and maybe on an old Mac mini with 10.6. I have followed all the setup procedures and ping works, ftp login works, etc. Just unable to get any file transfers and NFS to work. Tried it on two of my Macs to no avail.

Might have a bit of time on the weekend, but I'm also getting a "new" WatchGuard appliance to play with so there will be some interference.
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eagle



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 389

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

t-rexky wrote:
Thanks guys! I will try on one of my semi-vintage PCs and maybe on an old Mac mini with 10.6. I have followed all the setup procedures and ping works, ftp login works, etc. Just unable to get any file transfers and NFS to work. Tried it on two of my Macs to no avail.

Might have a bit of time on the weekend, but I'm also getting a "new" WatchGuard appliance to play with so there will be some interference.

It occurred to me to ask this after my last post: are you using NFS3 on both client and server, or NFS4 on both? You can't mix them.
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My NeXTs:
NeXT Computer prototype (68030-25 x2, 68040-25)
Two NeXTstations (68040-25)
All mono
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t-rexky



Joined: 09 Jan 2011
Posts: 271
Location: Snowy Canada

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I assume that the Synology falls-back to NFS3. I am using the exact same steps on Previous 1.6 as I am (and have been for years) on my physical TurboColor, both running NS3.3. Cannot get it to mount from Previous while it works just fine with the TurboColor.
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andreas_g



Joined: 30 Jan 2009
Posts: 413
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neozeed wrote:
I did find something weird, that the SLiRP Ethernet has some issues with being plugged in/out as part of booting.

So as a test I just short circuited all the teardown to do nothing...

Code:
    if(slirp_inited) {
        Log_Printf(LOG_WARN, "Stopping SLIRP(aborted)");
        return;


Thank you for the suggestion. At the moment SLiRP is started and stopped when the guest system starts and stops the emulated Ethernet transceiver or if the user disconnects Ethernet using the preferences. Probably I need to find a proper way to initialize SLiRP once and then stop receiving packets in case Ethernet is not connected or the transceiver is disabled. I need to make sure no packets are received or stacked to the queue while Ethernet is disabled (is stopping SLiRP tick thread enough?).

neozeed wrote:
NeXTSTEP 0.8 is apparently very much a 4.3BSD Tahoe port, so the network config all depends on scripts being able to resolve itself I suppose in rc.boot you an just do

Code:
ifconfig en0 10.0.2.15 netmask 255.255.255.0
route add default 10.0.2.2 1
ping 10.0.2.2 100 2


naturally you'll need to fix /etc/ttys to allow root access if you want in as root (who doesn't?!) I should also add that pinging the gateway makes it actually work, I guess the arp get's stuck or something, and the NeXT is such a good customer, that unless someone talks to it, it'll just sit there silent.

Still no success here. If you don't mind some step by step instructions might be useful. I'd prefer a way through editing hostconfig rather than hardcoding rc.boot. I tried to telnet rainmaker.wunderground.com for testing purpose.

neozeed wrote:
I love the sound + DSP! wow that's freaking awesome!

That is one of my favorites too. Knowing how complex this stuff is, it is some kind of miracle hearing correct sound: Reading from disk image, going through buffered DMA channel to memory, going from memory through another DMA channel to the DSP and being processed, result going through DMA channel back to memory and then again via another DMA channel to the sound box and no single bit is lost Very Happy


@t-rexky: I'm afraid I can't do anything about the networking issues. This is just not my world. Any efforts to track down and fix issues have failed so far. Definitely need some expert knowledge and debugging skills here.
For the kernel panics with NeXTstep 2.0: If you send me your configuration file and a link to the affected disk image I'll try to reproduce it. I did not see this issue so far (no panics at all for quite some time).

@all: Still looking for results on the FPU test program I posted above.
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wish I could help, sadly Im without any black kit. I picked up a cisco 7000 RP but it turns out it's a 68040 LC, so no math, no FPU! ...

From OS X with a 1.6 native exe..

Code:
NeXT_0_8# mount -t nfs -o fs,mnttimeout=1,retry=1,rsize=512,wsize=512,retrans=1 synology:/volume1/Data /mnt/data
NeXT_0_8# df
Filesystem            kbytes    used   avail capacity  Mounted on
/dev/od0a             149364  106680   27747    79%    /
/dev/od0b              86222   70482    7117    91%    /bootdisk/NeXT
synology:/volume1/Data
                     1420440 -431336 1749376    90%    /mnt/data


And from Wine with 1.6

Code:
NeXT_0_8# mount -t nfs -o fs,mnttimeout=1,retry=1,rsize=512,wsize=512,retrans=1 synology:/volume1/Data /mnt/data
NeXT_0_8# df
Filesystem            kbytes    used   avail capacity  Mounted on
/dev/od0a             149364  106677   27750    79%    /
/dev/od0b              86222   70482    7117    91%    /bootdisk/NeXT
synology:/volume1/Data
                     1420440 -431336 1749376    90%    /mnt/data


Same pre-release ROM, same 0.8 optical disc image... Very Happy

OK so it turns out it really really wants it to have an entry in the hosts file

Code:
$ hostinfo
Mach kernel version:
    Darwin Kernel Version 16.4.0: Thu Dec 22 22:53:21 PST 2016; root:xnu-3789.41.3~3/RELEASE_X86_64
Kernel configured for up to 4 processors.
2 processors are physically available.
4 processors are logically available.
Processor type: x86_64h (Intel x86-64h Haswell)
Processors active: 0 1 2 3
Primary memory available: 8.00 gigabytes
Default processor set: 303 tasks, 1280 threads, 4 processors
Load average: 3.32, Mach factor: 1.33


MacBook Retina early 2015 with connection over wifi
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t-rexky



Joined: 09 Jan 2011
Posts: 271
Location: Snowy Canada

PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andreas_g wrote:
@t-rexky: [...] For the kernel panics with NeXTstep 2.0: If you send me your configuration file and a link to the affected disk image I'll try to reproduce it. I did not see this issue so far (no panics at all for quite some time).


Just for record keeping purposes: I forwarded the misbehaving NeXTstep 2.0 image and configuration and Andreas was able to reproduce the panics. He was also able to confirm that the latest source snapshot resolves these panics. He believes they were related to a corner case FPU bug...

...one stop closer to emulated perfection.

I still had no time to troubleshoot the networking issue. Will try neozeed's build on one of my PCs over the weekend.
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