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nextchef



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 1007
Location: Missouri, USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nightengale wrote:

It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character.


Thats a great one, and very appropriate for this discussion.

Another good one of his

"Dreams are renewable. No matter what our age or condition, there are still untapped possibilities within us and new beauty waiting to be born."
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RacerX



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
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Location: Twin Cities, MN

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nextchef wrote:
Now that is uncalled for RacerX. There is no need to sully your response with personal attacks on the kid. You had a great opportunity here to explain your thoughts, and if not win him over at least get him thinking more about what you said. You might have even been able to explore more about what his position is, and why it concerns you so much, but you shot down that possibility now.

A wasted opportunity .. how unfortunate.

He said he was 14... based on that, my comment was giving him the benefit of the doubt and was not a personal attack.

If I had said something like that to someone I knew was an adult... then it could have been taken personally.

This is a big subject, bigger than what a 14 year old should have gotten involved in and bigger than a 14 year old has the experience to deal with. Most of the arguments I would normally use in the area of ethics assume that I am speaking with adults... 14 year olds aren't adults so can't be expected to follow adult trains of thought.

The best thing for him to do is to re-examine what he said ("I don't like stealing, it's bad.") and see if his actions match his words.

Also, children assume credit or rewards for good behavior, and that they will off set any bad behavior (his point of view from his first post). Adults no that good behavior is expected and not rewarded, and bad behavior is not tolerated.

There is no personal attack when pointing out that a child is displaying a child's point of view and isn't following an adult train of thought.
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it68000



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 82
Location: Italy

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

May us look at this problem from another point of view?

What I would like to say is that a single Porsche can always be of someone else. And If I find and old one with the doors open and the key inside I would never enter. Smile
But I also know that the technology and knowledge Porsche has created and used to build the car cannot be of the Porsche itself forever.

All man thinking and man intellectual work as time pass will become accessible to all. It is just a matter of time.
Porsche maintain and spent a lot of money every year to maintain copyright on the knowledge it creates. But in letís say 20 or 30, or 100 years all the invention from the Porsche man will be available to everyone, for whatever reason.

We donít mind to sing and sell a song invented by a singer 100 year ago. And we donít mind to reproduce and sell romance and poetry of 1000 years ago. We pay for a book containing Seneca works but we donít pay the Seneca intellectual property anymore for his thoughts. OK please donít hate me for these silly reasoning.

How we should determine ourselves about software? Can we apply these silly reasoning to software? When this is possible and when not?
My thinking is that at the moment its illegal to copy Openstep and NEXTstep because Apple (say if Iím wrong) has still the copyright on this software written. Apple use part of this technology in OSX at the moment too. So letís pay for these wonderful man works.

For this reason, after a while, I was able to get the full NEXTstep suite (68k, Intel, HP, SUN) from ebay. Also if I run just for nostalgia once a time in a week (at the moment, I have different plan).
But I know this will not be for forever, there will come a time when the copyright will die. When some peculiar software maybe considered just as abandonware and possible to copied freely.

I hope that this will happen very far away in time, because probably that would mean that NEXT technology would be totally surpassed and useful only for historical interest; but is it not history that should help us grow and improve?
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 691
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 3:19 am    Post subject: maybe I'm crazy... Reply with quote

but looking @ http://www.levenez.com/unix/history.html#07 here it's fair to say that NeXTSTEP's BSD is based on a fork right before Tahoe.

I know I have a copy of Tahoe for the VAX, I could package that up on simh for a "next like user experence....". Yes I know it's hardly the same thing but at the same point it'll give *some* of the taste...

Was Mach 2.5 ever really 'opened up'?

I see in : ftp://ftp.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/mach/public/src/mkernel

there is mach 3.0..

I've already packed up a Lites/mach/NetBSD 1.1 qemu image... it's dreadfully slow, but the networking operates...

Perhaps that would be a happy middle ground for our seeming pirate underground?

At least as far as I know that combination is legal.

I had written about it here:

http://virtuallyfun.blogspot.com/2007/05/tale-of-two-kernels.html

However an overheated server cooked my files.. I think I still have a copy of it, can anyone host 53 megabytes?
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nextchef



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RacerX wrote:
This is a big subject, bigger than what a 14 year old should have gotten involved in and bigger than a 14 year old has the experience to deal with. Most of the arguments I would normally use in the area of ethics assume that I am speaking with adults... 14 year olds aren't adults so can't be expected to follow adult trains of thought.


If that is what you think, then you should have not even responded to him, as he cant be expected to follow your adult train of though, as you put it. I believe that a 14 year old can grasp and discuss these topics, as long as they are framed in the right context.

RacerX wrote:
Also, children assume credit or rewards for good behavior, and that they will off set any bad behavior (his point of view from his first post). Adults no that good behavior is expected and not rewarded, and bad behavior is not tolerated.


Applying that logic, then most adults today are not "adults", which is an unfortunate outcome of society today. That is why it is so important to engage the "children" of today and explain to them that there is a right thing and a wrong thing to do, and that the world is not a squishy grey relativistic do what feels good place.

RacerX wrote:
There is no personal attack when pointing out that a child is displaying a child's point of view and isn't following an adult train of thought.


That may have been your intent, but your choice of words was not the best, especially when dealing with someone you have determined to be a child.
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nextchef



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:18 am    Post subject: Re: maybe I'm crazy... Reply with quote

neozeed wrote:
I know I have a copy of Tahoe for the VAX, I could package that up on simh for a "next like user experence....". Yes I know it's hardly the same thing but at the same point it'll give *some* of the taste...


Dont forget GNUstep, for those looking for "a taste". No it is not the same thing as NS/OS, but it could be with some more effort.

Could this be the answer to the "joyriders", a modified version of GNUstep that looks even more like NS/OS. They could then get the feel for it, take their screenshots or whatever, and if they liked it and wanted to know more could then get a "real" copy or real black hardware.

Sort of a "NS/OS Lite"

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krfkeith



Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, look. I agree with RacerX. In the sense that, it bothers me when people just wanna get some screenshots to say they have "used" NeXT. Good enough for you? I use NeXTSTEP as my main OS as much as possible however sometimes I just simply can't. I own two pieces of black hardware that I use daily so I don't think I qualify as a "joy rider." However, I do not think it's wrong when someone wants to try out an OS to learn more about it. I tried Rhapsody out just to see what it was like and to learn more about it because I love OS X. On the other hand, i is important to archive history. I was talking to someone who said he had a very early beta copy os NeXTSTEP like 1.2 or something. He wouldn't share it because of "legal" concerns. he might have the last copy on earth and it will die with him. Do you see what I mean? I don't pirate software (except for maybe a few versions of windows Smile). I just feel like if someone seriously would like to use an older OS, they should be able even if they can't find a legal copy. I propose this forum make some sort of petition to Apple to offer NeXTSTEP and Rhapsody for download like they did with System 7 (NOT MAC OS 7!!!, sorry pet peeve). Atleast for us black hardware owners.

Thanks
Kevin

EDIT:
I think we can all agree that the common enemy are those people that just want screenshots and want to add it to their "collection." And of course NeXTcube modders Wink . The legality is a whole nother discussion
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helf



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These points have probably been brought up already... I haven't read through the whole thread yet.

I own copies of NS and don't see a point in downloading it, but at the same time, I don't really have a problem with it. That is, as long as the person doing so is not turning around and trying to sell copies but it just using it on his/her hardware.


Apple does not make any money from it; They no longer sell nor do they even support it anymore. I think it falls in the gray "abandonware" area.

Honestly, why even bother wasting the time and energy to argue over it? You won't stop people from downloading it. People that want legal copies can always easily buy a copy off ebay. I seriously doubt very many people actually download NS/OS.

As for the Porsche comparison... ha! Smile I bet someone who has stolen a car probably HAS asked for help with it on a forum. They'd have to be a bit of an idiot to state that they stole it.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: maybe I'm crazy... Reply with quote

nextchef wrote:
neozeed wrote:
I know I have a copy of Tahoe for the VAX, I could package that up on simh for a "next like user experence....". Yes I know it's hardly the same thing but at the same point it'll give *some* of the taste...


Dont forget GNUstep, for those looking for "a taste". No it is not the same thing as NS/OS, but it could be with some more effort.

Could this be the answer to the "joyriders", a modified version of GNUstep that looks even more like NS/OS. They could then get the feel for it, take their screenshots or whatever, and if they liked it and wanted to know more could then get a "real" copy or real black hardware.

Sort of a "NS/OS Lite"

Chef


A well done Gnustep distro would be really nice. I really like windowmaker and gnustep.
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess a gnustep/darwin thing could be slapped together... Although I wonder if the screenshot crowd would even care....?

I have to really wonder, what on earth would drive the 'kids' to nextstep in the first place?

You can't play doom 4 on it....
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heh, who knows. I've always had a fascination with older machines and NeXT caught my attention when I was younger.... but I don't know why other people get into it.
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RacerX



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 333
Location: Twin Cities, MN

PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nextchef, before making any further comments in this thread, please go back and re-read what I said. I think you should stop viewing this as if I had said any of this to you and remember that I was discussing this with someone else (who has stated their age and I have no reason to doubt them on their word).

Why should you re-read what has been posted?
Example 1:
nextchef wrote:
If that is what you think, then you should have not even responded to him, as he cant be expected to follow your adult train of though, as you put it. I believe that a 14 year old can grasp and discuss these topics, as long as they are framed in the right context.

Why do you think that I shouldn't have responded where you believe you could have framed this in a better context? You never attempted this framing, but if you re-read the post in which you pull the quote from that started this, you see that after that quote I started reframing this into a context that would be applicable to someone who was 14 years old.

It looks like you had either stopped reading, or continued to read it as if I was talking with an adult (which is my guess here, as you are clearly taking offense for krfkeith while looking at it from your point of view).

Example 2:
nextchef wrote:
Applying that logic, then most adults today are not "adults", which is an unfortunate outcome of society today. That is why it is so important to engage the "children" of today and explain to them that there is a right thing and a wrong thing to do, and that the world is not a squishy grey relativistic do what feels good place.

It is a sad commentary on society, and I could give you examples of people who are supposed to be adults who have problems sliding back into adolescent or even child-like behavior when confronted with outcomes which they don't like. While all people show the ability to fall back to these traits which should have been discarded long ago, some people show a greater tendency than others.

But this statement runs counter to your earlier statement where you said I should have not responded.

I don't know about you (you seem overly sensitive, which is not a personal attack), but I strongly believe that children should be treated with the respect (as in harshness of argument, not coddling). Adults become adults by being exposed to the realities of adulthood while growing up... though this may not have been what happen with you or may not be how you think it should be done.

Example 3:
And this one is the best of all of these...
nextchef wrote:
That may have been your intent, but your choice of words was not the best, especially when dealing with someone you have determined to be a child.

See, if the poster is what he says he is (and again, I have no reason to believe otherwise) then no other choice of words was possible.

That bares strong repeating (to help drive this point home for you, of course): no other choice of words was possible.

nextchef, I'm telling you, adult to adult, it is very important that you reexamine your choice of actions in this thread. I have (so far) given you the benefit of the doubt on this matter. But where I would make exceptions for children, I don't with other adults.

So I strongly suggest that you follow your own advice and not respond further to this. It is not the topic of the thread and has no place here. If you wish to start a Bash RacerX thread, I promise not to protest. But in this thread, please stick to the topic.


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krfkeith wrote:
I think we can all agree that the common enemy are those people that just want screenshots and want to add it to their "collection."

Actually, this is more true than most people will ever understand.

Platform tourist our how a lot of people get their information on rare or minority platforms. I have pointed it out before, this site is the perfect example of the information (actually, disinformation) that people get from platform tourist. And from that page most people would think that you really couldn't do anything useful with that operating system.

helf wrote:
As for the Porsche comparison... ha! Very Happy I bet someone who has stolen a car probably HAS asked for help with it on a forum. They'd have to be a bit of an idiot to state that they stole it.

Well, this is the major difference here... downloaders don't feel any social stigma attached to what they do, so they don't attempt to hide it. Downloading illegal files is wrong and there can be harsh consequences, but it hasn't become socially unacceptable yet. Sad
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Joined: 29 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="RacerXWell, this is the major difference here... downloaders don't feel any social stigma attached to what they do, so they don't attempt to hide it. Downloading illegal files is wrong and there can be harsh consequences, but it hasn't become socially unacceptable yet. Sad[/quote]

That is because "software" is intangible and much harder for people to think of as property theft.

You honestly CAN'T compare stealing a Porsche to downloading copies of obsolete software that is no longer supported. The owner of the software is not taking any financial losses from people downloading it if they are no longer supporting or selling it. People need to stop applying old world rules and ideas to newer things like software. It just does not work.

Now, for something like Windows XP or Windows Vista or even OSX... yeah, that is not right at all.
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nextchef



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

helf wrote:
You honestly CAN'T compare stealing a Porsche to downloading copies of obsolete software that is no longer supported. The owner of the software is not taking any financial losses from people downloading it if they are no longer supporting or selling it. People need to stop applying old world rules and ideas to newer things like software. It just does not work.


As I told kfrkeith when he asked my opinion on this, downloading a copy of NS without a license to use it is the same as walking into a store and taking a copy of any software without paying. The consequences are different for your actions in each case, but they are both theft. Theft is still theft no matter how you "frame" it, or what the perceived damage is to the owner. Some people are ok with this, just as some people shoplift, pick pockets, or take an extra newspaper they did not pay for from the machine.

It is up to each person to decide if they can live with their actions, but it is still theft.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I know where everyone is coming from. I really don't care. I have never downloaded NS nor plan on it. So the debating really has no meaning to me.

Anyways, I'm going to bed now Wink
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