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RacerX



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 333
Location: Twin Cities, MN

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nextchef wrote:
...Some people are ok with this, just as some people shoplift, pick pockets, or take an extra newspaper they did not pay for from the machine.

It is up to each person to decide if they can live with their actions, but it is still theft.

Funny you brought that up... My first wife was an elementary school teacher and in the teacher's lounge they had an honor box (box of snacks with prices and a smaller box to put your money into). When I found out that she had been taking snacks without paying, I made it a point to make a trip to the teacher's lounge every day to drop money into the honor box to make up for what she had basically stolen.

So when I express my disappointment in people with fuzzy ethics, that disappointment is quite heart felt as one of the people I loved most unfortunately fell into that category. Sad
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 691
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RacerX wrote:
nextchef wrote:
...Some people are ok with this, just as some people shoplift, pick pockets, or take an extra newspaper they did not pay for from the machine.

It is up to each person to decide if they can live with their actions, but it is still theft.

Funny you brought that up... My first wife was an elementary school teacher and in the teacher's lounge they had an honor box (box of snacks with prices and a smaller box to put your money into). When I found out that she had been taking snacks without paying, I made it a point to make a trip to the teacher's lounge every day to drop money into the honor box to make up for what she had basically stolen.

So when I express my disappointment in people with fuzzy ethics, that disappointment is quite heart felt as one of the people I loved most unfortunately fell into that category. Sad


I hear this band radiohead is allowing fans to pick their own price for their next album. I suspect there will be a LOT of $0.00 "purchases"..

I remember from some psychological report that if you have a picture of a face over the money collection thing people have a higher likelyhood of paying......
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helf



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 1097
Location: Alabama, USA

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

neozeed wrote:

I remember from some psychological report that if you have a picture of a face over the money collection thing people have a higher likelyhood of paying......


That is interesting. I should try that at work. We have a coffee pot with a container for holding change. Coffees are supposed to be 25c a cup. There is rarely much money in it at all and when there is, it is usually nickels and pennies. I'll try the face thing Smile
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Jenne



Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 338
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a very inetersting view on this topic, RacerX, indeed. In fact the first one of this kind I've ever read.

But it's a never-ending-story, too. Remembering the very early days of personal (note: not home!) computing it was essential to share knowledge of hard- and software, regardless the legal (and related emotional) aspects. But this is about 30 or more years ago. The times of self-typed low quality manuals is far over and if you are listening to Steve Wozniak telling about his early days of phone hacking or programming "Pong" for just of the fun of it (well, Jobs wanted the money, as usual) it's somehow strange what became of these days.
I would like to reduce it to the facts as I see them regarding old Porsches or NeXT-machines. Although they are "unique" somehow they are just machines and there is absolutely no rational reason to treat them in a very special way: old Porsches just look nice and have a sporty style no other machine had but they use gasoline like mad, NeXT-machines are cool somehow and definetly some rather special computing hardware but although someone might still work with their black boxes I would never call them "productive" anymore, besides they are not very energy-friendly. But I love them and love is always one of the major reasons why humans tend to stick to "irrational" behaviour and thinking ;-)

About "sharing information" in accordance to "stolen machinery" is something that is disgusting to me. When I have the feeling that someone just tends to get his stolen machine just up and running again for the "show-off" thing (or whatever reason) I just look away. But if I get the feeling that someone is interested (I mean: really interested) but just lacks the necessary material I try to help. To get this one right:

I would never help anybody exchanging the Porsches's serail number just to hide it's origin! In those cases I'm always helping my "friends" (over here in Switzerland the Police and Firefighters are on the same side Wink. This is the same with stolen computing hardware, navigation systems or whatever.
But it's a bit different with software for old machines like the NeXT ones. To get it to the point: tons of historical computing hardware would just fetch dust if no knowledge would be shared (as in forums like this one, too). Ok, there is no strong reason to keep such old hardware alive (at least not in my opinion) but as longs as the evolution of that kind of communication tends to get forgotten I think that this only can be kept alive by doing some "slightly illegal" exchange. An example: I got myself those black machines but it took me much more time and efforts to get the system software for them! Well, I was lucky with the prices of my hardware but the OS was -> censored <- expensive! As I'm interested in the development of OS X I try to find out as much as I can about earlier systems (not necessarily NeXT solely) and there is simply no other way than to use more or less illegal software if You want to get it right.

You see where the dilemma of it all is?

You - knowing about the uniqueness of Porsches and NeXTs - will never ask dumb questions about "information sharing" in public or would exchange "stolen information" in forums. But You can not change mankind! You would never activly "hurt" a software company but people like You (and ma and many others around here) are nothing compared to those hordes of -> censored <- that never really care about anything that should

- be read
- be understood
- be handled right.

And there are some topics that should definetly be handled the right way. Appears to me that evolution of mankind has stopped in the meantime while evolution of computing made lots of efforts (and errors, too).

J[/list]
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matthewmac66



Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 40
Location: North Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

helf wrote:
heh, who knows. I've always had a fascination with older machines and NeXT caught my attention when I was younger.... but I don't know why other people get into it.


I'm in the same boat as you, Helf. I didn't want to jump in on the arguments, but my "two cents" reasons for collecting/using the NeXT hardware and software include:

- The beauty of simplicity in a world of often "overbuilt" software
- Truly unique design which broke the mold (why I also love my G4 Cube)
- A sense of technology history
- A fascination with where things started
- Maybe a return to my "roots" as a now 41-year-old technician :)

I like to find the original NS media whenever possible, as it's so nice to be able to browse the original literature/documentation, etc. along with use of the system. I'm into the details like that, I guess. Heck, I was jazzed that the original NS3 complete box that I purchased had original FedEx labels on it, destined for the Stanford U. Library Smile I was equally inspired in finding the internet photo of Sir Tim's NeXTCube at CERN....great stuff :D

I'm a fan of innovation and of history, and I guess I find a lot of that in my computer hobby. Friends think I'm crazy, but I don't care. Knowledge of the roots of computing passed on to the kids will hopefully result in a return to innovation and a true "outside the box" spirit. I feel blessed to have been here to see this evolution happen, still remembering my pals' TRS80 computers Cool
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helf



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 1097
Location: Alabama, USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

matthewmac66 wrote:


I'm a fan of innovation and of history, and I guess I find a lot of that in my computer hobby. Friends think I'm crazy, but I don't care. Knowledge of the roots of computing passed on to the kids will hopefully result in a return to innovation and a true "outside the box" spirit. I feel blessed to have been here to see this evolution happen, still remembering my pals' TRS80 computers Cool



That sums me up Smile I LOVE history. I'm addicted to it. I have piles of books on old computers and other older things. I'm surrounded by antiques of all kinds. People think I'm insane for using my "ANCIENT!!!1" NeXT for most of my computing needs... hey, it does what I need and want and never ever messes up. :)

speaking of old media, I have NS 3.1 and 3.2 dev CDs and some other stuff. You interested? I'll probably never use them and they are just sitting in a box.
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matthewmac66



Joined: 07 Sep 2007
Posts: 40
Location: North Carolina, USA

PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

helf wrote:
matthewmac66 wrote:


I'm a fan of innovation and of history, and I guess I find a lot of that in my computer hobby. Friends think I'm crazy, but I don't care. Knowledge of the roots of computing passed on to the kids will hopefully result in a return to innovation and a true "outside the box" spirit. I feel blessed to have been here to see this evolution happen, still remembering my pals' TRS80 computers Cool



That sums me up Smile I LOVE history. I'm addicted to it. I have piles of books on old computers and other older things. I'm surrounded by antiques of all kinds. People think I'm insane for using my "ANCIENT!!!1" NeXT for most of my computing needs... hey, it does what I need and want and never ever messes up. :)

speaking of old media, I have NS 3.1 and 3.2 dev CDs and some other stuff. You interested? I'll probably never use them and they are just sitting in a box.


Well said Cool as for the software, sure, I'd be interested.
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slomacuser



Joined: 12 Jan 2006
Posts: 220
Location: Slovenia, EU

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Piracy is good?

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-7943417698180428255&amp;hl=en


Cool there are always two sides, the good and the bad ...
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 691
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

remember when MS would say if people are going to pirate, they should be pirating OUR software... Since they know that eventually people will be in a place where they need to buy, and they'll stick with what they know...
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nextchef



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 1007
Location: Missouri, USA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neozeed wrote:
remember when MS would say if people are going to pirate, they should be pirating OUR software... Since they know that eventually people will be in a place where they need to buy, and they'll stick with what they know...


The chance that a person might find a "better" alternative is sometimes worse than piracy. A pirate is still a prospective customer in some twisted way, but once they leave it is much harder to get them back.

Chef
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