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Rhapsody 5.6 what's the difference
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brams



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 511
Location: Blackburn, England

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:49 am    Post subject: Rhapsody 5.6 what's the difference Reply with quote

I think I found a mint 300 Wallstreet, I want to put OS X Server 1.2 on it.

What are the differences between 1.2 & 1.2v3?, what happend to 1.2v2 and is it possible to update 1.2 to v3 with an updater of any kind (if so where do I download it?) or do I need to buy the v3 CD rom?

Cheers
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RacerX



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 333
Location: Twin Cities, MN

PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bare with me, I'm covering more than just the requested information... plus I'm always a little long winded. :?

The first thing to keep in mind is that Rhapsody was pretty much orphaned at birth. Most everyone who had worked to make Rhapsody 5.3 (Mac OS X Server 1.0) was quickly put to work on the Mac OS X Server Developer Previews.

This is the main reason for the fact that you won't find hardly any differences between Rhapsody 5.3 and any of the later versions. In fact, the whole concept of "versions" is missing from the Mac OS X Server GUI... Apple never intended there to be more than a single release.

Rhapsody 5.4 (Server 1.0.1) was a desperate bug fix. As with most operating systems, it takes the general public to really find the bugs that beta testers often miss.

Rhapsody 5.5 (Server 1.0.2) was actually both a bug fix and feature enhancement release... most notably with the MacOS.app (Blue Box)

Why no Server 1.1? Someone screwed up with the silk screening of Mac OS X Server media and put 1.1 on CDs that were actually 1.0 releases. So rather than recall them, Apple decided to skip the number and go to 1.2 to avoid confusion (though some people still get confused and don't apply the 1.0.2 update).

Feature wise... Rhapsody 5.6 (Server 1.2) really isn't that different from Rhapsody 5.5. The major changes were in hardware support. As it turned out, Mac OS X was taking a lot longer to finish than anyone at Apple had expected, and the G3 based PowerMacs started being replaced with G4 based systems. This meant that Rhapsody needed to be updated to support the new hardware and new processor.

One of the big changes was increased memory support (5.3-5.5 top out at 1 GB while 5.6 can handle 1.5 GB, the notes on this are here).

Finally, the differences between 1.2 and 1.2v3:
    Essentially... there is none.
When I got my 1.0 and 1.2v3 versions, they came in boxes. But my 1.2 version came in a plastic wrapper. On my shelf I have those two boxes sitting side by side. In the 1.0 Box I have a white envelope with all my 1.0 media and written on it is "1.0" in the upper corner. In the 1.2v3 box I have two such envelopes, one with "1.2" and the other with "1.2v3" written on them.
When I need Rhapsody 5.6 media, I actually don't look to see which envelope I'm grabbing from the 1.2v3 box.

To date I believe of the seven times I've installed Rhapsody 5.6 on hardware, only twice did I end up with the 1.2v3 installation (once because I planned on installing it, the other time was random). And in fact, as it turns out my current main system (my 8600/300) is running the plain "1.2" version of Rhapsody 5.6.
The only real difference is support for the Power Mac G4 Gigabit Ethernet. Otherwise, they are the same.

Why the "v3"? Honestly I have no clue where that came from. In the Console it identifies itself as Mac OS X Server 1.2.1. The other question is why the change in code name (from Pele1Q10 to Medusa1E3... though the E3 part may be were v3 came from)? I don't know that either.

The group that was called back to make these updates were most likely not closely supervised, and as there wasn't originally supposed to be more than a single release, I doubt anyone had thought out version rules.

This was, to a degree, the same with Mac OS X up to version 10.1.1. You would have a hard time telling from the Darwin version of 10.0.0 to 10.1.0 what version of Mac OS X you were using (10.0.0-10.0.4 were Darwin 1.3.1 and 10.1.0 was Darwin 1.4.1). That was why Apple changed the Darwin versions with 10.1.1, starting with Darwin 5.1 (so there was no Darwin 5.0 for Mac OS X).

Pretty much, unless you have a Gigabit G4, you really don't need 1.2v3. And because this one version of the G4 is the only hardware that requires it, there is no upgrade or update path.

For a run down on hardware that 1.0-1.0.2 (5.3-5.5), 1.2 (5.6) and 1.2v3 (also 5.6) support, you can check out this page. Even the original eMac is supported by both 1.2 and 1.2v3, which shows you just how specific this 1.2v3 release was to the Gigabit G4 as far as differences.


Additional References
Like I said, for me (and my old hardware), there is no effective difference between 1.2 and 1.2v3... it is pretty much the luck of the draw as to what I pull out of the box. And for a Wallstreet, I wouldn't think there would be any effective difference between 5.5 or either version of 5.6 (other than having to manually update the Mac OS in 5.5's Blue Box to 8.6). Still, I'm not everyone, so I don't want to say that you should treat them this way. So here is some additional references on all the versions...And of course when looking at what comes with the packaged versions of these, there is a difference in what is bundled with the OS itself. With the notable exception of the Developer/WebObjects CD which is exactly the same with all releases... the updated developer tools for later versions were only available via the Apple Developer Connection program (or by buying WebObjects 4.5). As a result, there is actually some apps who's source code will not compile using the developer tools included with Rhapsody 5.3-5.6 (sort of a pain, and yes people did try complaining to Apple about this).

Here are the spines of my Server boxes to give you an idea of some of the differences.


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brams



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 511
Location: Blackburn, England

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks RacerX, that's just what I needed. :-)

So it seems to be only difference is Bluebox and G4 support.

I was given (thrown in with when I bought a 2nd hand Lombard but never installed) a legit copy of OS X Server 1.2 from when I worked in Thailand as I was friends with the Apple dealer (you always are when you buy a new Mac I guess) there a few years back. It was an open box and I'm not sure if it's complete as I only got the CD themselves (Server, WebObjects, NetBoot & 3rd Party Solutions), but I don't seem to have the network setup assisant CD so I assume from the box end scans I have 1.2 as only 1.2v3 seems to have this. It also seems the 3rd party solutions CD was missing from 1.2v3

So it seems I'll also only have Mac OS 8.5.1, is it possible to update this using an 8.6 CD ROM from within the bluebox enviroment?, I bet it's not worth the hassle anyway I'm just curios.

Do the same caveats exist for Rhapsody 5.6 as they do for OS X on a Wallstreet, within the first 8gb partition?
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RacerX



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 333
Location: Twin Cities, MN

PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I guess I should point out what CDs come with each version...

Mac OS X Server 1.0 (and the mislabeled 1.1) come with the following:
  1. Mac OS X Server Install CD
  2. WebObjects/Developer 4.0.1 CD
  3. NetBoot Server CD
  4. Third Party Solutions CD
This Mac OS X Server install CD comes with the 8.5.1 version of Blue Box.

Mac OS X Server 1.2 comes with the following:
  1. Mac OS X Server Install CD
  2. WebObjects/Developer 4.0.1 CD
  3. NetBoot Server CD
  4. Network Assistant
This Mac OS X Server install CD comes with the 8.6 version of Blue Box.

Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 comes with the following:
  1. Mac OS X Server Install CD
  2. WebObjects/Developer 4.0.1 CD
  3. NetBoot Server CD
  4. Network Assistant
This Mac OS X Server install CD comes with the 8.6 version of Blue Box.

So if you have Server 1.2, you have 8.6 in Blue Box.

As for upgrading a 8.5.1 Blue Box to 8.6 (after Rhapsody is brought up to 5.5), all you need is the free 8.6 updater from Apple and the font management patch.

brams wrote:
Do the same caveats exist for Rhapsody 5.6 as they do for OS X on a Wallstreet, within the first 8gb partition?

I don't believe so.

I've only used (extensively) either a 4 GB or 8 GB drive in my Wallstreet when I was running Rhapsody on it. I did (for a few days) have a 20 GB drive in it, and yes I did have Rhapsody 5.6 installed on the full 20 GB and working... sort of.

There is a bug with the Wallstreets that makes them vulnerable to magnetic fields given off by some hard drives... mainly IBM hard drives.

What happens is that once the drive has been running for a while (a few minutes) it has generated enough of a field to activate the physical "sleep" switch (which is right next to the hard drive).

So while 5.6 did seem to work just fine on the 20 GB drive I had, I didn't get a chance to test it much because after a while my system would shut down to a hard sleep.

The only limitation that I know of for Rhapsody 5.3 and later is that it has to be on a partition that starts within the first 1 GB of the drive. It works best if it is the first partition, but if it is the second, the first can't be larger than 1 GB in size or the system will not find it.



This all seems to be a property of the firmware mode for booting. Both Mac OS X and Mac OS 8/9 use the firmware in the default "bye" configuration, while Rhapsody uses saved settings using "boot". The 8 GB limit for Mac OS X is most likely a product of this.
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nextchef



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is this 8gb limit you guys are talking about. Is it a wallstreet specific thing, or do other G3 based laptops have the same issue.

Chef
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brams



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nextchef wrote:
What is this 8gb limit you guys are talking about. Is it a wallstreet specific thing, or do other G3 based laptops have the same issue.Chef


If you want to put OS X onto a PowerBook G3 Wallstreet/PDQ or Mainstreet you need to make sure that if the harddrive is bigger than 8gb that you install OS X onto the first partition and make sure it's 8gb or less. I have no idea why or what happens if you don't stick to the rules, I'd guess it results in file system corruption or won't boot.

I think it's a Wallstreet issue, they have a couple of quirks with HD's, they can only use ATA5 drives as well so I recall.

I don't think Lombards are affected and I'm writing this on my Pismo which has a 60gb HGST 7200rpm 7k60 in it and it runs Tiger on the 60gb partition.

Not sure about Kanga but IMHO it's a bit of a clunker anyway Shocked
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nextchef



Joined: 17 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does OSX run acceptably on a wallstreet, especially at only 300-350mhz. Will tiger even install, or do you need to us 10.1 or 10.2. Can you even stick enough memory in one, since in my experience OSX does not run very well without at least 512m, and a gig or more is best.

Chef
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brams



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nextchef wrote:
Does OSX run acceptably on a wallstreet, especially at only 300-350mhz. Will tiger even install, or do you need to us 10.1 or 10.2. Can you even stick enough memory in one, since in my experience OSX does not run very well without at least 512m, and a gig or more is best.Chef


Well I'd be surprised if a 300mhz PDQ/WS II didn't make an half decent job of OS X, officially 10.2 is the max but Panther & Tiger run as well using XPost Facto. I think Tiger might be pushing the boat out a bit but Panther would be OK. You can get G4's for them as well from Wegener Media for 199 bucks. You can put 512mb in them.

The graphics chip does suck a bit with 4mb vram (2mb on 233/12") and it's only a RageLT Pro, the real 1st gen Wallstreet (250-292 etc) used a Rage II LT I think which is worse. I'd have preferred a 292 'cos the bus is quicker at 83mhz vs 66mhz but the GPU is crap

I'm using 384mb ram in my Pismo which also has a 550mhz G4 in it and a rapid hard drive, Tiger runs very well, in fact I was using the other night editing some DV movies in iMovie 6. All PowerBook G3's are awsome, Pismo is just a fantastic laptop, I'm gonna buy another soon for spares. I also have a 2.0ghz MacBook Pro but use the Pismo way more 'cos it's a better computer for everyday tasks like email, surfing etc. I'm gonna get a slot loading DVD writer soon from Wegener but waiting until I get the Wallstreet as I might wack a G4 in that too. Apparently, if Tiger senses that there is a GPU that can't handle Quartz or Core then there are routines that allow Altivec to handle/speed up some of the GUI, I can confirm this as I used Tiger for a bit with the 500mhz G3, when I put in the 550mhz G4 it instantly became much more responsive (more than the 50mhz would account for)

IMHO the best way to speed up laptops is swap out the OEM hardrives, every one I've had have been painfully slow, the MBP is OK, but the one I had in my 667 TiBook was crap and I put a 7k60 in it.
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PowerPC



Joined: 04 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tiger won't install without a twist as minimum for it's a PowerBook G3 "Pismo" beeing the "worst" supported hardware. There is of coures some support application doing the trick for older hardware but i've forgotten the name.

Having Tiger here on a "Pismo" i dare say it runs poorly. Problem's not the CPU - i assume you could cut that down a lot farther than 300 mhz for OS X still working fine but the GPU exspecially for newer OS X versions - having no Quartz extreme capable Graphics Card (simply put 16 mb vram - exists since 10.2) will ruin your experience for sure as the GUI becomes very sluggish.

I dare say i see no point in running any kind of mac os 10.x on such hardware besides proof of concept - most software for daily use won't work within acceptable speed.

(Wallstreet will support a maximum of 512 mb ram consisting of 2 x 256 mb pc100 so-dimm)
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Jenne



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="brams"]
nextchef wrote:
All PowerBook G3's are awsome, Pismo is just a fantastic laptop, I'm gonna buy another soon for spares.


Simply true. I love my Pismo and I will give it a special part on my domain, soon. It is one of Apple's major products that will never go out of style.

J
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PowerPC



Joined: 04 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well someone was faster typing than me Very Happy

So let's start contradicting your opinion brams, will we? Laughing

"Pismo" is a great Laptop indeed (since i wouldn't had get one if it weren't).
Probably one of the very best NoteBook desings ever but:

My configuration is pretty close to yours regarding ram and a fast HD (Toshiba @ 5400 rpm 16 mb cache) but i'm stuck with the original G3@400 mhz

As you say Altivec will indeed substitute for a Quartz extreme capable Graphics Card and speeds up the GUI fore sure but i think it's still very poor (can see that on my sisters original G4 Titanium - the 400 mhz modell).
As well low display resolution is a problem - at least fore me, wouldn't want to do anything but playing the games that won't start in classic on that machine. To the point - although it may be supported i'd use it only for OS 9.

But i agree for the faster HD - think it's the only noticeable difference between my G4 1Ghz PowerBook and my G4 1,67 Ghz PowerBook (had the built to order option for the 7200 rpm drive in it)
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brams



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PowerPC wrote:
Well someone was faster typing than me Very Happy

So let's start contradicting your opinion brams, will we? Laughing

"Pismo" is a great Laptop indeed (since i wouldn't had get one if it weren't).
Probably one of the very best NoteBook desings ever but:

My configuration is pretty close to yours regarding ram and a fast HD (Toshiba @ 5400 rpm 16 mb cache) but i'm stuck with the original G3@400 mhz

As you say Altivec will indeed substitute for a Quartz extreme capable Graphics Card and speeds up the GUI fore sure but i think it's still very poor (can see that on my sisters original G4 Titanium - the 400 mhz modell).
As well low display resolution is a problem - at least fore me, wouldn't want to do anything but playing the games that won't start in classic on that machine. To the point - although it may be supported i'd use it only for OS 9.

But i agree for the faster HD - think it's the only noticeable difference between my G4 1Ghz PowerBook and my G4 1,67 Ghz PowerBook (had the built to order option for the 7200 rpm drive in it)


Well point with the Wallstreet is, I've always wanted one 'cos of the awsome build quality and 'cos I want to run Rhapsody on something. I also get a kick out of using old hardware (beside the BeBox, SGI & NeXT's) I have about 15 to 20 Macs and love my 840av dearly, but for me nothing is really mission critical so I can afford to mess about, I think the MBP is probably the least messed with Mac I own and is always there for when I screw things up on anything else (which is quite regular).

Regarding the Pismo, I have to say you must get a G4 to make the best out of them. I have no idea why but my Pismo is much quicker than the 667 TiBook I had which quite frankly was a piece of shit (paint flaking and all that crap), I use it for most of my stuff, and it's not sluggish or slow, though it's not much of a measure it boots in about the same time as my Digital Audio here and thats got a dual 7455 1.4ghz cpu and a 160gb raid 1 7200rpm. I use it for about 90% of what I do, it's great to use on the bed which is where I usually am watching TV and drinking beer and mooching on the 'net, add to that I get about 6 hours out the battery. I'm not sure on this but, this CPU is a MPC 7410 which is the one with the same pin out as the MPC 750. Later ones had different pin outs, I think the 7410 is maybe a desktop CPU as it is a lot more responsive than the 667 TiBook which only had a 256k cache, mine was the SVGA one.

I just timed it now, to launch Photoshop CS2 took 35 seconds and Word 2004 took 10 and that was with a few apps running like Mail, iChat & Firefox so maybe with more ram it would have done less swapping and loaded quicker.

I have a Sony Vaio XG700 at work which is a PIII 750 running Windows 2000, it's a joke compared to the Pismo, it takes nearly 5 minuets to boot up. The Pismo I think takes much less than a minuet.

I got my G4 upgrade from Wegener Media, I wanted to install myself as I was in the UK on holiday at the time and could not be bothered shipping to the US like XLR8 want you to, plus all the Mac companies in the UK are very expensive. Wegener I think sold me the upgrade for 300 bucks with 100 bucks rebate for your old CPU, I sold my old G3 500 on eBay for more. I'd also give Wegener 8 out of 10, I give 8 as the heatsink paste supplied was crap and they didn't give enough, I used some of my own. Thus I can do nothing but give Wegener a big recommendation, very easy to deal with, good prices, very interesting product range (the slot loading superdrives are way cool)
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PowerPC



Joined: 04 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

brams wrote:
...than the 667 TiBook I had which quite frankly was a piece of shit (paint flaking and all that crap),...


I had one of these 'nd was very happy with it until i "luckily" poured a full bordeauxglas of african shiraz in it. Crying or Very sad
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RacerX



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I use my Wallstreet for Mac OS X most of the time (pretty much everything I write is written on this thing). These are the specs of my G3 PowerBooks...
    PowerBook G3 Wallstreet
    G4 at 500 MHz with 1 MB of L2 cache
    512 MB of memory
    40 GB hard drive
    20 GB hard drive (battery bay)
    CDRW (CD-ROM bay)
    USB 2.0 PCMCIA card
    Running Mac OS X v10.2.8

    PowerBook G3 Lombard
    G3 at 400 MHz with 1 MB of L2 cache
    512 MB of memory
    10 GB hard drive
    Wireless PCMCIA card
    Running Mac OS X v10.3.9

    PowerBook Pismo (wife's system)
    G3 at 400 MHz with 1 MB of L2 cache
    640 MB of memory
    10 GB hard drive
    Running Mac OS X v10.3.9
Yes, I'm a fan of the whole G3 PowerBook line too. And I'll most likely grab another Wallstreet in the near future just because I really did love running Rhapsody on it.

While Mac OS X runs great on all my PowerBooks, the Altivec in the Wallstreet does make a difference for many things. Plus I'm just used to working with it... which is why I spend so much time on it. The only times I'm off it are for Rhapsody stuff (which means I'm on my 8600/300) or work projects (which means I'm on my Beige G3... which has a G4 at 533, a Radeon 7000 and a nice 20" display).
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brams



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RacerX wrote:
Well, I use my Wallstreet for Mac OS X most of the time (pretty much everything I write is written on this thing). These are the specs of my G3 PowerBooks...[list]PowerBook G3 Wallstreet
G4 at 500 MHz with 1 MB of L2 cache
512 MB of memory
40 GB hard drive
20 GB hard drive (battery bay)
CDRW (CD-ROM bay)
USB 2.0 PCMCIA card
Running Mac OS X v10.2.8


Have you not tried using Panther on this system?, I used XPost Facto ages ago on a Power Computing Power Tower Pro with a Newer or Powerlogix G4 400 and it worked like a charm. I think I ran Jaguar on it as it is a while ago.
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