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what other things are you guys into?
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helf



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 1097
Location: Alabama, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah, gotcha. there are very few newer cars of any nationality that I like. I've always loved older cars. I guess its from my dad, thats all he has owned.

Citroen Ds are really cool! I watched one on ebay a few months ago when I was looking for a new car. It just barely went out of my price range ;(
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brams



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 511
Location: Blackburn, England

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

helf wrote:
ah, gotcha. there are very few newer cars of any nationality that I like. I've always loved older cars. I guess its from my dad, thats all he has owned.

Citroen Ds are really cool! I watched one on ebay a few months ago when I was looking for a new car. It just barely went out of my price range ;(


I tend not to like modern cars, there is no passion in them, and everything about them is dictated by maths and physics with very little human emotion mixed into the brew. Porsche are a very good example here very good at what they do, but the 997 is not as an emotive a car as the 993 was and it's only been out of production about 8 years.

Compare the looks of a Mercedes-Benz 300SL Gullwing Coupe or a Jaguar S1 E-Type Roadster to anything new today. There are no more beautiful cars like that anymore, what is beautiful about a Ferarri 599 or Aston-Martin Vanquish?, sure the Vanquish is cool (very) but not beautiful, I have about 100 cars in my dream garage and there are not many modern cars.

Look how cool the original Beetle is and how crap the new one is.
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helf



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 1097
Location: Alabama, USA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm glad other people think that way... I have to explain why I bought my spitfire and not something new all the time.

New cars just don't have 'character'.

The 300sl mercedes are gorgeous. Too bad good examples can hit 250k usd :(

I'll be chugging along in a car from the 50-70's when everyone is using electric cars 50 years from now ;)

There are some really nice cars from say brazil that you never heard about. I'll have to dig a site up I found that had a bunch of old foreign cars listed. some are positively breathtaking.
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PowerPC



Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 57

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

brams wrote:
...everything about them is dictated by maths and physics...
You think? Actually i think it's just the opposite. Reason why i love my '87 BMW so much is 'cause she has absolutly no vital electronics or servomechanisms. The engineers had to built a car that's fun to drive via good engineering. But nowadays it seems more like a "hm - this design doesn't work out - but instead of making a better one let's just ad a servomechanism here and a electronic control device there, that'll compensate for the worst". At least that's what i got from the more recent cars i drove - how're you supposed to enjoy driving these things?
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brams



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 511
Location: Blackburn, England

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I actually meant by that was that, rather than designing a car that looks good or from the heart, they are modeled in 3d and using CFD, wind tunnels etc etc to have better crash performance, coeff of drag, rolling resistance, noise, NVH, etc etc. Whilst I appriciate that these things make a better machine in it's absolute sense, modern cars are not the reason why I wanted to be a Tech when I was a kid.

EFI is better than Carbs in every way except looks and maybe noise. However can you imagine a 427 AC Shelby Cobra with EFI or a 289 Shelby Mustang?, for me at least it would not have the same auora as a 4 barrel Holly.

What I'm trying to say is that, except for the smallest handful of modern cars, they are all dull, a Bentley Continental GT is massively quick as you'd expect with 650Nm torque and it being flat from 1400rpm up to the redline. I drive them everyday, and a wonderful car it is too, but it's dull IMHO in that it does not set your balls alight like a 550HP car should. Each seat in a Continental GT weighs about 150lbs. Which kind of defeats the purpose of having 550HP in the first place, performance being roughly equal to power vs weight vs aerodynamic and rolling resistance.

The new Jaguar XK has got a resonator that passes from the intake manifold through the plenum chamber and into the area behind the instrument pack, it's purpose is to combat the NVH engineered into the car, the engine character is out of tune with the cars and is too quiet without the resonator, thus it's there to make induction noise more inline with that of a sports car, so basically they are trying to emulate the noise of Carbs.

You know things have gone stupid when they want to put Diesel engines in cars like the Jaguar XK, they are talking about it, God forbid the day.
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itomato



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 302
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The modern process of automotive design rarely gives "life" to vehicles. They begin and end as static design exercises.
Too many focus groups and cookie-cutter design students, not enough sculptors and visionaries.

I went to the recent Auto Show at our State Fair and paid special attention to things like knob quality, accessory control placement, seating position, etc.

95% of the vehicles I sat in (cars and trucks alike) had the window controls in the same place with the same layout.. The GPS display in the same general vicinity, similar placement of ventilation and radio controls, same ignition position, same multi-purpose stick on the left and right sides of the steering column, same cheap leather, same cheap sound to the closing of the door, same, same, same..

What made a Saab a Saab? What set a BMW apart from a Honda, and a Honda or Toyota apart from a Ford, Olds or Buick?

Feel..

The "Feel" is gone in this era of GM/Ford operating under such names as Opel, Jaguar, Saab, et cetera, and so many sourcing parts from TRW and Delco.. It's the same thing over and over.

Less human involvement - more robot, and it shows.

--
It was the same thing with personal computers during the 70's and 80's. People were innovating all over the place, and what was borne from that were multiple platforms with different ways of doing things.

Power buttons in different places, *NO* power buttons.. Clicking a picture to execute a command vs typing a command this way or that way to execute. C: prompt vs. READY vs. ?.. 5 1/4" floppies, 3 1/2 ", tape, cartridges, internal/external, included/add on...

It all made people think. Some of them didn't like it very much, but it was for the best.
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brams



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 511
Location: Blackburn, England

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

itomato wrote:
What made a Saab a Saab? What set a BMW apart from a Honda, and a Honda or Toyota apart from a Ford, Olds or Buick?


You've cited Saab as an example, I happen to like old Saabs, probably as they are viewed as a bit quirky here in the UK, my point is that along with BMW and Porsche they brought Turbocharging to the masses, beyond that they are/where an innovative company (you read about Saab SVC?), they where the first iirc to use on plug coils which has obvious benefits. They played they're own drum in that they where very distinct and different than anything else at the time. Saab also have pedigree with great success in rallying with the likes of Eric Carlson and I think IIRC maybe Stig Blomqvist. They where one of the proponents for LP Turbocharging, I think it was called APC or something.

BMW, another one of the greats in my book, 4 of there cars feature in my dream garage. BMW M1, BMW 3.0 CSL, BMW 2002 Turbo, BMW E30 M3 Evolution and the best V12 Engine in the world the BMW Motorsport S70/2 as fitted to the McLaren F1. New BMW M5 is a technical marvel, I've yet to drive one, but I'm not holding my breath as I fear it probably technology gone mad and the thing is pig ugly to behold.
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itomato



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 302
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly.

They did their own thing. They all did their own thing.

This is what's missing today. The only carmakers to do their own thing in the recent past have been from South Korea (Daewoo, Kia, Hyundai) and their "own thing" happens to be "improve" and "beat you at your own game".

I made an example of Saab because the only remaining Saab traits (disclaimer: I haven't driven one in almost 15 years) seem to be the center-console-mounted ignition key, and maybe the overall dash layout. Today, a Saab is a Subaru, is an Opel, is a Chevy, is a Saturn...

It's a sham, and a shame..

BMW's built in South Carolina: Heresy!
"Japanese" cars "Proudly Made in the USA": Blasphemous!

Show me a German automobile that is actually "German", or a Japanese one that is truly "Japanese" and I'll show you a car that will remain an icon for a generation.
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Jenne



Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 338
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

itomato wrote:
Show me a German automobile that is actually "German", or a Japanese one that is truly "Japanese" and I'll show you a car that will remain an icon for a generation.


At least my BMW motorcycle is built in Germany, in Berlin, to be more exact. A true friend indeed ;-)

J
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entraptor



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 11
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:21 pm    Post subject: Old Cars Reply with quote

I have followed the thread and agree wholeheartedly on today's modern cars great looks but lack of "soul". I drive a restored 1976 Bricklin SV-1 Gullwing and love it dearly (as I have two, one of which I modernized the engine and transmission with an AOD.) It is truly worth a smile to see people almost break their necks to do a doubletake as I drive by, and even more so when I pull into a parking space, hit the button, and the gullwing doors open by themselves. I have had people run across a parking lot to get a better look at that point beforejavascript:emoticon('Very Happy'). And besides old computers, I spend at least one day a week in the garage working on the other cars in the stable (73 Mustang Mach I and a 71 Dodge Super Bee.)

What can I say, everyone needs a hobby.

Entraptor

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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helf



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 1097
Location: Alabama, USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have a Mach 1 AND a Bricklin?! I hate you. :P

Can you post some pics of flickr or something? I have wanted a Bricklin SV-1 for a long time. Theres only ~1200 left, at least in the USA, right?
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brams



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 511
Location: Blackburn, England

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:52 am    Post subject: Re: Old Cars Reply with quote

entraptor wrote:
I have followed the thread and agree wholeheartedly on today's modern cars great looks but lack of "soul". I drive a restored 1976 Bricklin SV-1 Gullwing and love it dearly (as I have two, one of which I modernized the engine and transmission with an AOD.) It is truly worth a smile to see people almost break their necks to do a doubletake as I drive by, and even more so when I pull into a parking space, hit the button, and the gullwing doors open by themselves. I have had people run across a parking lot to get a better look at that point beforejavascript:emoticon('Very Happy'). And besides old computers, I spend at least one day a week in the garage working on the other cars in the stable (73 Mustang Mach I and a 71 Dodge Super Bee.)

What can I say, everyone needs a hobby.

Entraptor

Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy



Bricklin SV-1, I took a look at that, interesting, I'm surprised I'd never heard of it before, there is a Wiki on it which I will read later today.

Dodge Super Bee, now that's what I like!, there are so may cool American cars, and I have a lot in my dream garage, I just adore the boat tail Buick Riviera

I don't think modern cars look all that great, for me the finest styles where from the 40, 50, 60 & 70's. Everything started to go very wrong in the 80's, everything that came out of the USA during that time was utter shit for me, but I guess it was hard work trying to style a car on the old muscle lines when it was strangled to death and a VW Beetle was nearly as quick.
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helf



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 1097
Location: Alabama, USA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm rather surprised you haven't heard of it before, too. Its looks are similiar to a Delorean. I know two people with those...

There's a Bricklin 'homepage' of sorts, brams.

http://bricklin.org/

Has a lot of information. Very cool car.

Anyways, very nice collection, entraptor!
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brams



Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 511
Location: Blackburn, England

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

helf wrote:
I'm rather surprised you haven't heard of it before, too. Its looks are similiar to a Delorean. I know two people with those...

There's a Bricklin 'homepage' of sorts, brams.

http://bricklin.org/

Has a lot of information. Very cool car.

Anyways, very nice collection, entraptor!


Wow, I was going to say that before it looked a wee bit like a DeLorean DMC, I think it also reminds me of one of the Vectors.
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helf



Joined: 29 Dec 2005
Posts: 1097
Location: Alabama, USA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now that you mentioned it, it does...

Wow, I had forgotten about Vectors!

I had seen one of those on a car show years ago, first time I've heard one mentioned since then, actually. :)

i wonder how much they sell for :|

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_Supercars
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