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how to even start the install for NS 3.3
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RacerX



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 333
Location: Twin Cities, MN

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, usually one need only ask the question of what could be done using the systems of that era to figure out why no one wanting to do serious work considered using a PC. I've pointed out what could be done using 1994 software on an old Mac before (a good example can be found here). From what I recall, the main reason for CLI people disliking GUI systems was the fact that it removed the barrier to entry for using computers. Most of the DOS users who disliked Macs and later Windows did so because a GUI negated the training they had gone through to make their computers useful.

What is funny is that many who were late to the web often lament the days of hand-coding web pages for the same reason, but originally the web was supposed to be a WYSIWYG experience. When Tim Berners-Lee made his research available, most people were more concerned with porting the page rendering part rather than the page generating part of his work to other platforms. This gave rise to another false barrier to entry which had to be overcome.

I agree with da9000, if it can be done better it should be done that way... I just doubt that his priorities as to what should have been done better, when and by whom are in anyway similar to mine. Very Happy
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Nightengale



Joined: 04 Jan 2006
Posts: 152
Location: SD CA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nope, from what I know of, IBM PC's were marketed by IBM to get into that market you mention-certainly nothing mission-critical or real time for sure. The same market that Apple iMacs were originally for-no?

The main reason that I remember floating around for CLI vs GUI was "real" computer users typed things in, "GUI is for babies" or something to that effect was the rants I remember reading.

I went from Apple to PC simply because of the magically amazing amount of hardware and software available. Apple IIC hard drive was 20 mb and just too expensive. I couldn't download programs that were too big because I ran out of room on the floppy that had the telcom program on it, only one disk drive tho... IBM clones had all of these wonderful cards to plug in to choose from. It was a cheap decision for home use but you're quite right, the barrier to entry was there for as you stated but pricing quickly became a priority for me. The training point is a good one, that's too ironic.

I don't understand the web point you made but then again I don't understand a lot of things Smile
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pentium



Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1159
Location: Kamloops, BC

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are going off topic.
Anyone have any ideas?
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 716
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pentium wrote:
We are going off topic.
Anyone have any ideas?


Yeah.. for yours & my sanity get a new floppy disk drive & some new floppies!!!!!

And don't mix OpenSTEP with NeXTSTEP CD's... KISS....


I still say you should use qemu and do a dry run....
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pentium



Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1159
Location: Kamloops, BC

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*sigh*
Well it looks like the topic is just going to derail from here on so I give up.
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 716
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pentium wrote:
*sigh*
Well it looks like the topic is just going to derail from here on so I give up.


Without proper disks, it isn't going to work. ever.

Even in 1994 if you didn't have working floppy disks / drives you'd be up the creek.
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pentium



Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1159
Location: Kamloops, BC

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well in that case the next time I have free time I'll try to boot off the NS floppies and start over without the cd's.
One question, is a scsi cd drive needed during the floppy boot? The last time I tried I was having trouble getting the setup to detect the IDE cd drive I'm assuming it's a driver-related issue.
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 716
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pentium wrote:
Well in that case the next time I have free time I'll try to boot off the NS floppies and start over without the cd's.
One question, is a scsi cd drive needed during the floppy boot? The last time I tried I was having trouble getting the setup to detect the IDE cd drive I'm assuming it's a driver-related issue.


SCSI isn't required. thats why I said do it in the emulator so you get a 'dry run'. The BETA disk has a bug in that the IDE/EIDE controllers don't show up on the first pass. Select the #2 driver (it's mostly out of the way to screw up detection) then you can press 7 and get the rest of the drivers.....

Trust me, do it in the emulator to get a feel of it. It's quicker than the real thing.

Honestly.
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pentium



Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1159
Location: Kamloops, BC

PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Problem is that my only system capable of running such an emulator is not up to it not to mention it will really get me nowhere (you still have to load the setup like normal and even after you have installed it you have to do it AGAIN).

I have tried every IDE driver on the NS 3.3 disks and none of them want to detect my cd drive. I tried with a regular scsi cd drive but it too was undetected by the install. I tried loading the drivers in different orders and I even tried loading all of them but the setup still can't see the cd drive!
It's really starting to get on my nerves now. If it refuses to work the cd WILL become a mug coaster and that is a threat.
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 716
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:37 am    Post subject: Hmm.. Reply with quote

I had an idea last night...

If you boot the floppies on your system, you'll get your disk geometry..

Such as your Quantum Fireball ELS is 10602 cylinders, 15 heads, 63 spt

You could try this:

creating a raw disk image with Qemu, installing a bare system (the drivers you have at least mount up the CD). Gziping that raw disk image, adding something like an OpenBSD boot floppy & the compressed disk image onto a bootable CD.

So you boot the CD, then mount the CD and then do something like this:

gzip -dc qemu-raw.disk.gz>/dev/wd0c

which will overlay your real disk with the virtual disk.

Another thing I would suggest after looking at the pictures again is just booting up with something like OpenBSD and instead of installing blanking your disk. Use either the bootable CD found on their site, or the boot floppy, and just select shell then do something like this:

dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/wd0c bs=512

let it go for a few minutes or all the way it doesnt matter but this will destroy all data / partitions / mbr's and all that jazz from the disk. Then if you can boot with the config that you had going when you took the pictures NeXTSTEP ought to see the disk as blank, you can then do the 'advanced' route and create your 2 gig partition. Remember NeXTSTEP's biggest disk support is 2 gigabytes. (its a 32bit signed thing. Lot's of BSD4.3 derrived OS's have this limit).

I'd probably try the disk blanking first as it'll be quicker, then doing the qemu image switcharoo.....
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pentium



Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1159
Location: Kamloops, BC

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

!*ALERT*! BRAIN OVERLOAD!
I did not understand one thing you said.
You also forgot (read back) that I removed the IDE quantum drive and in it's place installed a 2 gig Seagate SCSI drive. That was the only way I could manage to get the system to register the hard drive before the system registered the cd drive and thus have setup detect the hard drive.
We can forget about the hard drive now.

We just need to figure out why the cd drive is invisible when we try to boot up and install using the NS 3.3 floppies.
-We tried a scsi cd drive and it wasn't detected (and the correct scsi driver was used)
-We tried both the master and slave positions in the primary IDE bus with no success.

Something is not right. I'm going to fiddle with the system a little more and see what's up. It also might have something to do with the bios.
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pentium



Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1159
Location: Kamloops, BC

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's something.
I wanted to refresh myself on what exactly was the problem and I missed two things.

Before I get the problem about no cd drive being found I get this a few lines up

Code:
Adaptec2940: Can't Get configspace; ABORTING
Adaptec2940: Can't Get configspace; ABORTING
hc0: No devices detected at port 0x1f0


I then looked over the error.

Code:
No SCSI controller or CD-ROM drive found
Use sd%d, hd%d, fd%d, en%d, tr%d
Root Device?

...and from there it prompts for input.

There was one part I missed it seems. Not only is the CD drive not being found but neither is the SCSI card being detected. I know I am loading the right driver so what's the difference between the NS one and the OS one?
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 716
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 7:15 pm    Post subject: openstep is a weird thing.. Reply with quote

its basically a new step of the api as they lifted it above nextstep so it would run on windows, and solaris...

I haven't heard any success about loading os drivers on ns.

could you go back to an all ide setup? it sounds like a clean wipe of that disk would help as it was seeing both on the boot pics.... (the dd thing)

Now this config space error is critical ... it sounds like you've got an early pci bios.. it was flakey as hell when it debuted...

see if you have settings for PnP and toggle that about.. you may also want to disable all peripherals you can to "free config space"... see if your bios has a failsafe setting..

sorry the later 486/ early pentiums were a rough ride.. by the PII PCI had stabalized to being usefull.

I was also thinking if you have a new ide disk and a bios that will let you have a manual drive type you ought to be able to fake it out as long as the spt is the same....

can you boot in some manner that see's a HD at least?
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pentium



Joined: 23 Jun 2006
Posts: 1159
Location: Kamloops, BC

PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far the only way I have had the setup properly detect a hard drive was when I used the OS boot cd's, loaded the scsi driver and then the IDE driver.
However we now know that you run into driver problems later on.

I'll throw an 800 meg IDE drive in tomorrow, set it as master and slave the cd drive on the primary IDE bus. I'll pull the scsi card as well as the sound and network cards and reset the bios and reconfigure it.
When it comes to configuring the hard drive in the bios I will set it to "normal" and not LBA or Large. I'll then try to get the setup to work properly. If it works, the scsi, sound and net cards are reinstalled.

I would of had a PII system floating around but I have had to trim down on my spare boards recently and I had to dump a few. Also, please ignore the photos on the first page. Those were taken back when I had a different configuration and totally diffreent problems. I'll make up some new shots as soon as I can.
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neozeed



Joined: 15 Apr 2006
Posts: 716
Location: Hong Kong

PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 8:30 am    Post subject: Ok. Reply with quote

I'll tell you what as well.. I'm about to move offices and I'm sure there are tonnes of extra IDE disks about.. The field techs dump them about...

If you post a picture of your install CD showing it as an original, I'll mail you an IDE disk with NS installed, and a bootable CD with a compressed image of NS.

You've fought way too hard to have gotten nowhere..
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