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Rhapsody 5.6 what's the difference

Started by brams, October 16, 2006, 10:49:18 AM

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nextchef

Quote from: "brams"?!?!?!?!? WTF did I miss something with Wallstreets?

Look at the price!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120042438239&sspagename=ADME%3AL%3ARTQ%3AUK%3A1&rd=1

I guess more people are figuring out what a nice laptop it really is.  The more I mess around with the two I have, the more and more I like it.  Will have to consider upgrading it to some sort of G4 processor, and getting a bigger drive so can get OSX on it.

Chef

brams

OK so I bagged this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/apple-powerbook-g3-512mb-30gb-ibook-g3-g4-g5_W0QQitemZ270043708418QQihZ017QQcategoryZ4606QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

What do you all reckon?, seller says it's a 266 but maybe a 300, he says it's not a 233.  It's a bit expensive but at least it looks complete and I can play with Rhapsody on it.
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

nextchef

Quote from: "brams"OK so I bagged this:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/apple-powerbook-g3-512mb-30gb-ibook-g3-g4-g5_W0QQitemZ270043708418QQihZ017QQcategoryZ4606QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

What do you all reckon?, seller says it's a 266 but maybe a 300, he says it's not a 233.  It's a bit expensive but at least it looks complete and I can play with Rhapsody on it.

Original packaging and everything, nice.  You got the mpeg-dvd processor card, as well as a bunch of other accessories.  Hope the laptop itself is not beat up too bad, otherwise it looks like a nice addition to your collection.

Chef

brams

RacerX

Please can you tell me, is a Firewire card & Wi-Fi card supported by Rhapsody 5.6 if so which ones?

I already have an Orinoco Gold which I use with my Message Pad 2100, but would prefer a 802.11g if possible, I will probably also dual boot it with Mac OS 8.1 or 8.5.1 I bet wireless G does not work under anything less than OS X?

Thanks
brams
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

RacerX

Looks like you got a nice system... and more reasonably priced than the last one you posted.

As for your questions...

Firewire... no. This OS came pre installed on Blue & White G3s and never had Firewire support.

USB (even though you didn't ask)... pretty much no. Rhapsody 5.3-5.6 will see a single USB port (on Macs with them built in) and only works for connecting a USB keyboard and mouse.

Wireless... no. As Apple would put it: "This is a server OS." Which was their basic answer to any one wanting more features supported than was already there.

SCSI... absolutely. And your new PowerBook has SCSI built in.

DVD-ROM drive... questionable (and no for DVD play back). With the Lombards, the DVD-ROM drives are totally not supported (beyond not working for installation, you won't even have the ability to read CDs with the drive). With the Wallstreets, you'll need to jump through some hoops to install Rhapsody 5.3-5.6 on them with their DVD-ROM drives. The procedure is outlined on this page.

brams

Argh!! it's a 233 Wallstreet, so a brain transplant is in order me thinks, so Mr Dave Wegener is gonna be receiving an order for a G4/500 pretty sharpish.  Thankfully it is a Walllstreet with 4mb RageLT Pro and not a Mainstreet with 2mb Rage II LT graphics and no scaling ability.  It's not such a big deal as it would have got a G4 in it if it was 300, I could have just sold the 300 on for a bit a cash back, dammit!!

I did want to use 8.1 as well as Rhapsody, will that work with a G4 or does it need a G3, 8.6 is supposed to be the first G4 OS but does that mean it supports AltiVec or mean that anything before 8.6 won't work at all.

I suppose I could get a 500 G3 but there is not much differnce in price and I'll probably stick Panther on it, it's gonna be a systems that I play with rather than use for anything productive so it'll be getting new OS'es loaded all the time as I get bored with one thing then the next.

RacerX, is it possible to have Rhapsody & OS X on the same system?, I know you can have Rhapsody and OS 8 or 9 but unsure about X

Cheers
brams
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

RacerX

Quote from: "brams"RacerX, is it possible to have Rhapsody & OS X on the same system?, I know you can have Rhapsody and OS 8 or 9 but unsure about X
Well, the problem is that both Mac OS X and Rhapsody have odd requirements as to where on a drive they can exist on a Wallstreet.

I'd suggest using two drives... one for Mac OS X and one for Rhapsody. Switching drives may be something of a pain, but most likely less trouble than attempting to run both on the same drive. It takes me a couple minutes to change drives on a Wallstreet (and I could cut that time in half if each drive was already in a carriage).

Beyond that, I can't offer much in the way of experience... I've never set any of my systems up to boot from multiple operating systems (other than my iMac which can boot both Mac OS X and Mac OS 9, though I haven't run 9 on it in a few years). Even my ThinkPad has one OS per hard drive (and I switch drives to run either Rhapsody or OPENSTEP... takes about 30 seconds to do the switch).

Quote from: "brams"Argh!! it's a 233 Wallstreet, so a brain transplant is in order me thinks, so Mr Dave Wegener is gonna be receiving an order for a G4/500 pretty sharpish. Thankfully it is a Walllstreet with 4mb RageLT Pro and not a Mainstreet with 2mb Rage II LT graphics and no scaling ability. It's not such a big deal as it would have got a G4 in it if it was 300, I could have just sold the 300 on for a bit a cash back, dammit!!

I did want to use 8.1 as well as Rhapsody, will that work with a G4 or does it need a G3, 8.6 is supposed to be the first G4 OS but does that mean it supports AltiVec or mean that anything before 8.6 won't work at all.
I wouldn't lose your original G3 daughter card for your Wallstreet if I was you (and in fact, I've kept an old G3 daughter card for my Wallstreet which has a G4/500 in it).

First, I'm not sure that Rhapsody is going to be very happy with a G4 (or G3) replacement card in your Wallstreet. These cards aren't stock equipment, and usually require additional software to enable the cards to work correctly... software which doesn't exist for Rhapsody.

Additionally, Mac OS X may refuse to install on a Wallstreet with a replacement card. Having the original card for the installation (or reinstallation if needed) and then switching to the replacement card afterwards is the safest thing to do.

And in some cases switching between Mac OS X and Mac OS 8/9 requires special software as well with replacement cards.

It is just better to be safe than sorry... keep your original Wallstreet daughter card.


As for running in Mac OS 8.1... you could do it, but I'd keep in mind that pretty much anything that would work with Altivec was also Carbon. And you need 8.6 for Carbon apps to function.

The only reason I'll put 8.1 on a system rather than 8.6 is memory... 8.1 uses around 8 to 12 MB of memory for the system were as 8.6 uses between 16 to 24 MB of memory. If you are running your Wallstreet at a memory level where that makes a difference, you are never going to get either Mac OS X or Rhapsody on that system. If you have 48 Mb of RAM or more, Mac OS 8.1 starts to lose any advantages it might have had over 8.6.

Similarly, almost anything that could run in Mac OS 9.x can be run in 8.6... and 8.6 requires far less memory (Mac OS 9 starts out around 32 MB and jumps beyond 64 MB by the time you get to 9.2.x) and is much more stable than any version of 9.x.x.

I only run 8.1 on a single system (my Quadra 950), the rest of my pre-Mac OS X and pre-Rhapsody) systems are running Mac OS 8.6 (four systems not including Blue Box on two of my Rhapsody systems).

I have all of these classic Mac operating systems, and have been supporting them with clients for years... believe me, I use the best of what I have for my own systems (and that is not always the newest or what originally shipped on my systems).

brams

Quote from: "RacerX"I wouldn't lose your original G3 daughter card for your Wallstreet if I was you (and in fact, I've kept an old G3 daughter card for my Wallstreet which has a G4/500 in it).

First, I'm not sure that Rhapsody is going to be very happy with a G4 (or G3) replacement card in your Wallstreet. These cards aren't stock equipment, and usually require additional software to enable the cards to work correctly... software which doesn't exist for Rhapsody.

Additionally, Mac OS X may refuse to install on a Wallstreet with a replacement card. Having the original card for the installation (or reinstallation if needed) and then switching to the replacement card afterwards is the safest thing to do.

Good point you mention here, I'll keep the 233 just in case, however my Mum was playing with it the other and remarked how well built it was but why had a I bought another slow old piece of junk.  Thus if even my Mum thinks it's slow then it's a sorry state of affairs :-(

Not sure about a few things here, not too bothered if I can't run OS X on it to be honest, Rhapsody 5.6 is why I bought it.  I'll also have a play to satisfy curiosity NetBSD & Yellow Dog and Unbuntu Linux.

Unlike some/all of the other CPU boards for Wallstreets, Wegener uses the original Apple CPU board and puts on a new CPU.  iirc only Newertech, Powerlogix & Sonnet did them for Wallstreet and they all used they're own PCB's, iirc the Bondi iMac and Lombard & Pismo where the first machines whereby the roms where on the CPU board and CPU upgrade companies could no longer use they're own PCB's.  From that I assume the Wallstreet had the rom on the logicboard  not the CPU daugherboard.

Wegener also claims that you don't need any SW under OS X or 8/9 to enable cache, from that I assume Open Firmware inits the cache.  Also the MPC 7410 is pin and bus compatilble with the MPC 750, so I'm guessing here all they do is take of the old MPC 750, put on the 7410 and change the multiplier from 4.5 to 7.5 and thats it.

There is a cache enabler for Rhapsody 5.1, will that not work under 5.6?

What make of WS G4 upgrade do you have, G4 is the logical choice as only Wegener seem to make them now, and the G4 costs less than a 500 G3.

http://www.wegenermedia.com/wllstg4.htm

They give you a rebate in against your old card if you send it in.

QuoteAs for running in Mac OS 8.1... you could do it, but I'd keep in mind that pretty much anything that would work with Altivec was also Carbon. And you need 8.6 for Carbon apps to function.

The only reason I'll put 8.1 on a system rather than 8.6 is memory... 8.1 uses around 8 to 12 MB of memory for the system were as 8.6 uses between 16 to 24 MB of memory. If you are running your Wallstreet at a memory level where that makes a difference, you are never going to get either Mac OS X or Rhapsody on that system. If you have 48 Mb of RAM or more, Mac OS 8.1 starts to lose any advantages it might have had over 8.6.

Similarly, almost anything that could run in Mac OS 9.x can be run in 8.6... and 8.6 requires far less memory (Mac OS 9 starts out around 32 MB and jumps beyond 64 MB by the time you get to 9.2.x) and is much more stable than any version of 9.x.x.

So it's just the carbon side of the equation then, I guess 8.1 will just see it as a G3 then, I don't use or need anything under OS 8 or 9 that uses Altivec, in fact it's mainly just to play a few old games like Riven and Myst, so I figured using 8.1 would be easier as I have it and I don't know what I did with my 8.5 and 8.6 disks, as I recall 8.1 was my fave OS anyway, ran very stable on my 7300 which was overclocked an all sorts of stuff.

To be honest from my side of things, I didn't see any massive improvements from 8.1 onwards, but maybe I forget as it is a long time ago now.
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

RacerX

Quote from: "brams"Unlike some/all of the other CPU boards for Wallstreets, Wegener uses the original Apple CPU board and puts on a new CPU.  iirc only Newertech, Powerlogix & Sonnet did them for Wallstreet and they all used they're own PCB's, iirc the Bondi iMac and Lombard & Pismo where the first machines whereby the roms where on the CPU board and CPU upgrade companies could no longer use they're own PCB's.  From that I assume the Wallstreet had the rom on the logicboard  not the CPU daugherboard.
With the Sonnet G4 upgrade you had to transfer the ROM from your original daughter card to their daughter card.

Quote from: "brams"Wegener also claims that you don't need any SW under OS X or 8/9 to enable cache, from that I assume Open Firmware inits the cache.  Also the MPC 7410 is pin and bus compatilble with the MPC 750, so I'm guessing here all they do is take of the old MPC 750, put on the 7410 and change the multiplier from 4.5 to 7.5 and thats it.
If you don't need additional software, then it would be because they are using the original cache on the original daughter board... which also means that it has to be as the same ratio at the original daughter board that they are using.

Quote from: "brams"There is a cache enabler for Rhapsody 5.1, will that not work under 5.6?
No... that cache enabler was designed for helping 5.1 recognize a G3 at all. The G3 based Macs came out after development of 5.1, so when 5.1 sees a G3 it thinks it is a 603e (which was what the G3 was based on). The enabler was designed for getting it passed that short coming.

Rhapsody 5.6 was designed around the G3 and G4... it knows what those processors are, so it doesn't need patching for Apple hardware. But just like Mac OS 8/9/X based systems using third party upgrades, Rhapsody would need help understanding how the third party hardware works... Which is why you generally don't want to run Rhapsody on upgrades.

I ran Rhapsody on an 8500 with a G3/300 upgrade and it was not that great... and no where near as fast as my 8600/300 (using the original 604e/300).

Quote from: "brams"however my Mum was playing with it the other and remarked how well built it was but why had a I bought another slow old piece of junk.  Thus if even my Mum thinks it's slow then it's a sorry state of affairs
A G3 at 233 MHz with 512k of L2 is usually a pretty fast system... for older operating systems. If it seems that slow to you guys, then odds are that you have a G3/233 with no cache (those were pretty slow systems even when they were released).

I don't know what you'll be doing in Rhapsody, but I do graphic design and web design on my systems. I did a lot of work on my site using my ThinkPad (Pentium at 133 MHz with 256k of L2, 80 MB of RAM), which was okay. I did a lot more using a 7500 (PowerPC 604e at 210 MHz with 256k of L2, 512 MB of RAM), including quite a bit of page layout. And with my 8600, I don't have any issues doing most anything (including Flash and Quicktime authoring in Blue Box).

If you have the 233 with L2 cache, then all you'd need is more memory (and apps) to do just about anything in Rhapsody. The 233 without cache may drag a little... though I can't imagine it being that slow compared to a 604e at 210 MHz.

At any rate, if what you are saying about this upgrade is true, then you most likely wouldn't have any issues anyways.


Quote from: "brams"What make of WS G4 upgrade do you have, G4 is the logical choice as only Wegener seem to make them now, and the G4 costs less than a 500 G3.
I have a Sonnet... I don't recall Wegener selling G4 upgrades for Wallstreets back when I bought mine (Fall of 2002). But that was where I got my expansion bay hard drive kit in the spring of 2003.

This system serves me quite well... along with the G4/500 upgrade, it has 512 MB of RAM, a 40 GB (internal) hard drive and a 20 GB (expansion bay) hard drive, CDRW (expansion bay) and USB 2.0 (PCMCIA slot). I still spend a majority of my time on this system... though my Lombard 400 is starting to get more of my attention (mainly because it only has math stuff on it so I won't be distracted).

brams

Quote from: "RacerX"A G3 at 233 MHz with 512k of L2 is usually a pretty fast system... for older operating systems. If it seems that slow to you guys, then odds are that you have a G3/233 with no cache (those were pretty slow systems even when they were released).

I checked the Apple System Profiler and it says it's a 233/512 PPC G3, however my Mum says it's slow because she uses a dual 800 Mac G4 and so shes comparing it to that.

Quote from: "RacerX"I don't know what you'll be doing in Rhapsody

Asking you questions ;-) and filling in the blanks between NeXT and Apple, I've played with Mac OS X Server 1 very quickly once, but I'd like to spend time and see what makes it tick.

Quote from: "RacerX"If you have the 233 with L2 cache, then all you'd need is more memory (and apps) to do just about anything in Rhapsody. The 233 without cache may drag a little... though I can't imagine it being that slow compared to a 604e at 210 MHz.

Machine has already for 512mb in it so it's maxed out.
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

Jenne

Just a note in between:

I'm also interested in the development of NeXTstep, Openstep, Rhapsody and Mac OS X Server. I just managed to install Rhapsody DR 1 on my old 8500, made some screenshots and transfered them to my G5, next ToDo on my list is DR 2, then the several NeXTsteps. The OS X Server screenshots have been made some days ago on my G3 beige Desktop. I'm close to fill up my little OS project on BlackMac.ch.

Next week Copland waits to be installed =)

J

slomacuser


brams

OK now it's been a while but I've got this Wallstreet (PDQ, which is like brand new) up and running, I've re-read most of this thread and can report that it runs Rhapsody 5.6 fine, it installs it fine onto the internal 30gb HD even with the 500mhz G4 installed.  It won't install onto the Xcaret bay 80gb HD, the installer in OS 9 when booted of the CD sees it and allows me to select it but when it reboots OS X server 1.2 off the CD I get a message saying the target volume cannot be found.

Tiger installs OK on the Excaret (along with the required helper volume either on the internal or bay HD)  thus proving that indeed the bay module is bootable (which MCE said it would be).  Tiger runs surprisingly well on this machine.

I'm trying to get Rhapsody & Tiger to live together, but installing Rhapsody kills tiger, in fact it renders the machine unbootable except into OS 9.  I've tried to keep all volumes withing the 8gb limit but as far as I can tell that seems to be inaccurate as the boot volume only needs to be within the 8gb limit (OS 9 is on a 4gb partition) and I used 24gb  for Tiger and it works fine, as it did with Rhapsody.

I'm also interested in getting Ubuntu onto the machine but I'd prefer Rhapsody and Tiger first.

Does anybody have any idea why they don't play well together?

Regards
Mick Bramley
NeXTcube Turbo Dimension, NeXTstation Turbo Color, MP2100, Q840av, Q650, WS G4 500, Pismo G4 550, SGI Octane R12K MXE, BeBox 133.

Nadav35

I would like to buy or find this Mac OS X server 1.2v3! I am willing to pay a fee to get it, or even a license fee.

Thank you.